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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2009 6:05:15 GMT -5
By the way, we never mentioned the Abrams article in this particular Review. He writes of the correspondent/artist, Charles St. George Stanley, who accompanied the Crook column. It is a very nicely done piece, and it too, is loaded with good information. If you read it closely I think you will get a pretty good understanding of what Marc's magazine, "Last Stand," is like. Pieces like this are much less editorialized than they are specific to an event. That means they are usually loaded with facts, plus the usual "color" of the times. The smell of Indians is a perfect example you wouldn't necessarily get somewhere else. Men's nicknames is another example. Then there is the fact that a private named Nelson died of cholera on June 15. Well, Nelson's name doesn't show up on the June 30 rosters-- for obvious reasons-- and his name doesn't show up as a casualty of the June 17th fight. I even got the name of a wagon train employee.
Really good stuff!
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by cisdyd on May 1, 2009 8:33:45 GMT -5
Fred, I can't find my RR but are you talking about William Nelson, private, D/3d Cav. who died on 06/14/1876? If so, the June regimental return has him dying from remittent fever, not cholera.
Billy
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Post by marcabrams on May 1, 2009 9:20:14 GMT -5
Cisdyd-- I did not state in my article that Nelson died on the 15th, but that he was buried on the 15th. Fred understandably misunderstood that point.
From the Internet: Cholera morbus is acute gastroenteritis occurring in summer and autumn and marked by severe cramps, diarrhea, and vomiting. No longer in scientific use.
In any event St. George Stanley might be right or there was no consensus on Nelson's death and Stanley heard Cholera morbus from someone while the person writing in the regimental returns wrote it down as something else.
Thanks for your input.
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Post by cisdyd on May 1, 2009 9:42:19 GMT -5
Cisdyd-- I did not state in my article that Nelson died on the 15th, but that he was buried on the 15th. Fred understandably misunderstood that point. From the Internet: Cholera morbus is acute gastroenteritis occurring in summer and autumn and marked by severe cramps, diarrhea, and vomiting. No longer in scientific use. In any event St. George Stanley might be right or there was no consensus on Nelson's death and Stanley heard Cholera morbus from someone while the person writing in the regimental returns wrote it down as something else. Thanks for your input. Marc, don't sweat the death date as I have seen one case were the regimental return, interment register and hospital return for the same man showed different dates. In a case such as that, I go with what I feel will be the most accurate, in this case, the hospital return. Also, you will see mixed up dates when something big is going on such as a cholera or yellow fever epidemic when the doctor/doctors are too busy for accurate record keeping. Billy
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Post by bc on May 1, 2009 10:22:46 GMT -5
If it was cholera, there would probably be a lot more deaths and many more sick as it spreads like wildfire. Enough of a problem that there would be desertions, isolations, and plenty of talk of abandoning the campaign to split up the troops. Even if someone wanted to coverup a possible cholera death to avoid problems, there would be enough others that were sick that the coverup wouldn't last long. I don't know if this remittant fever is anything like the grippe, but that was a common problem. Maybe the guy had a case of the mule flu, a precursor to the bird flu and the swine flu.
bc
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Post by marcabrams on May 1, 2009 10:32:35 GMT -5
Billy-- Just for the record (and for anyone keeping stats), my book, "Crying for Scalps" (p. 54) shows that Stanley recorded Nelson's death on June 14. Bourke also recorded it on that date (bottom of p. 315 of Robinson's book, Vol. 1, Bourke Diaries).
Marc
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2009 10:42:36 GMT -5
I have to tell you, the cholera business threw me and I rather figured it wasn't the epidemic version. I do find it strange, however, that a fellow would die on, let's say, June 14, but wouldn't be buried until June 15... on a campaign. You might think they would want to get his butt in the ground as quickly as possible.
However... I succumb to the whims and fancies of you both, infinitely more knowledgeable than me, and I shall make the necessary adjustments to my "notes."
Thank you all for the great input.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by marcabrams on May 1, 2009 10:49:53 GMT -5
Fred - Both St. George Stanley and Bourke say that Nelson died at night on the 14th, hence a burial in daylight the next day. Marc
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Post by cisdyd on May 1, 2009 14:37:40 GMT -5
If it was cholera, there would probably be a lot more deaths and many more sick as it spreads like wildfire. Enough of a problem that there would be desertions, isolations, and plenty of talk of abandoning the campaign to split up the troops. Even if someone wanted to coverup a possible cholera death to avoid problems, there would be enough others that were sick that the coverup wouldn't last long. I don't know if this remittant fever is anything like the grippe, but that was a common problem. Maybe the guy had a case of the mule flu, a precursor to the bird flu and the swine flu. bc BC, sorry, I didn't word it right. I meant that during times of epidemic cholera or yellow fever, records were secondary. Cholera morbus is not asiatic or epidemic cholera such as struck the Kansas and Texas (and eastern regions) in 1866 and 1867. Marc nailed it right in calling it acute gastroenteritis. That is also what Dr. Sohn describes it as in A Saw, Pocket Instruments, and Two Ounces of Whiskey: Frontier Military Medicine in the Great Basin. Actually, although I will have to go to my old email application, I believe I specifically asked him about the difference in cholera morbus and asiatic cholera as I had to go back and change several entries in the Project From Hell in which the cause of death was c. morbus rather than cholera (asiatic/epidemic.) Billy
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2009 15:17:09 GMT -5
... the difference in cholera morbus and asiatic cholera as I had to go back and change several entries in the Project From Hell in which the cause of death was c. morbus rather than cholera (asiatic/epidemic.) Why not just "big gas"? Fred.
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Post by cisdyd on May 1, 2009 15:28:00 GMT -5
... the difference in cholera morbus and asiatic cholera as I had to go back and change several entries in the Project From Hell in which the cause of death was c. morbus rather than cholera (asiatic/epidemic.) Why not just "big gas"? Fred. Do you mean a dark cloud? Billy
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Post by marcabrams on May 1, 2009 15:52:30 GMT -5
I was right about something, my wife will never believe it.
Anyhow, St. George Stanley's narrative is interesting, descriptive, and a good read. I would like to think my article does him justice and rescues him from the land of obscurity. Oh yes, I hope people read it because there's a lot more in it than cholera morbus!
And if you haven't ordered your issue of Last Stand Magazine, Volume 1, it won't be around forever.
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Post by Melani on May 1, 2009 18:13:38 GMT -5
I believe "remittant fever" was what they called malaria. I don't believe that would have spread the way cholera would have.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2009 19:41:28 GMT -5
Is malaria contagious? I thought you had to be bitten by a mosquito to get it?
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by cisdyd on May 1, 2009 22:20:15 GMT -5
I believe "remittant fever" was what they called malaria. I don't believe that would have spread the way cholera would have. Malaria was a form of remittent fever. Billy
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