Post by custersfreckles on Feb 14, 2008 16:22:16 GMT -5
Then you will have to show me the proof of their tiredness. In writing from them, not in your head. You can't offer such proof because I am a single member who holds none of the sway you think you do. If you continue to claim yourself the mouthpiece of this association or its government, I--and many others--will contact the board of directors to demand when such a decision was reached and in what forum. That kind of stuff doesn't happen in non-profit organisation without a vote by the governing board and without a record that can be made avaliable to the membership. I'm on the BOD of a major writers' group and we can't even discuss policy--no matter how informally--in any other forum than a scheduled gathering of our associates.
And if this under the table crap is happening within the Little Bighorn Associates, it gives but another reason--and this is one that can be challenged in court--for members to terminate their connection with the organisation.
You are a dues paying member, just like me. You are nothing more than that. Stop the wild-eyed imaginings.
Last Edit: Feb 14, 2008 23:42:34 GMT -5 by custersfreckles
Post by benteeneast on Feb 14, 2008 19:43:04 GMT -5
there's no whitewashing in promoting historical facts
To bad you don't always have the facts. That is the issue. Calling a dead person a coward doesn't take much intestinal fortitude. Your issue is that Reno thought he needed more men to defend the timber because of too many Indians which is the same issue you raise for Custer which is to many Indians for the number of troops Custer had with him.
Are you saying Custer never retreated from the enemy? If so explain how he got on Last Stand Hill. The village was the other way. Was he charging to the rear like Reno?
Post by ericwittenberg on Feb 14, 2008 19:51:07 GMT -5
I will say this....
I have no dog in the great showdown between the LBHA and the Merkels. From my perspective, all of that is water under the bridge. My life is stressful enough: practicing law full time, running a publishing company, and doing my own research and writing is more than enough of a challenge for me. Mix in the two discussion boards that I own/moderate, my blog, and everything else in my life, and I simply don't have time for these kinds of political set-to's and infighting. What's more is that I don't see how they advance the cause.
I was drawn to this organization by my great friend and mentor, Brian Pohanka, and I can't help but wonder what Brian would say about all of this if he were still around. My guess is that he would be appalled.
It seems to me that there has to be a way to resolve some of this and heal some of these wounds. Why can't we focus our energies on that?
benteeneast, it would be useful to prove your accusations rather that claiming to have facts you don't display here. Mine are all over the website.
Custer built a defensive perimeter because he was waiting for someone who had to "be quick" but never showed up. He held his position for more that two hours. Reno forgot to create a rear guard, ran away first and let his men alone.
Post by benteeneast on Feb 15, 2008 9:30:41 GMT -5
Provide proof that Custer remained in one place for two hours. Most accounts have him moving around the battlefield.
What accusation do you refer to?
Charges have rear guards? To be more specific the Indians were 360 degrees and heavy on the flanks a rear guard would not protect a flank since the body of troops would be moving. Right? If you put one company on each flank and one to the rear you would have no troops left to be protected. This is the problem with small units not attacking a large body at the same time. Each can be rolled up, chased away, or destroyed in less than one half of a day.
Your friend Strange can explain this to you.
Greetings from the Strange One!
If Custer's tactics had been properly timed, would a sure victory over the Indians have been expected? To articulate, and kickstart this discussion here, I believe that the Indians had far too much time to breathe between each and every confrontation by each detachment. Custer had a wonderfully drawn out plan to hit the village from the north and the south, with three different parties that would have surely been an overwhelming shock if they had lined up properly and arrived more thoroughly.
By all accounts of the Indians, they have stated their surprise by each attack,and stated their expectations of more troopers to come, BUT they have also stated their comfort between the times of each confrontation and how much time they had to breathe and up their spirits. They even had time enough to loot and scalp before each new arrival of soldiers.
Among the major driving force behind the Indians is their morale, which would have mightily suffered had they been properly surrounded and suffocated. Many tribes had given thought to pulling out and fleeing at times, but each thought of retreat would be quickly tossed aside when they came to the realization that they weren't totally surrounded and that soldiers were not immediately on their way like they thought. Crazy Horse himself was given breathing room enough to make a major rally of his warriors which would have been severely cut off if Custer's timing had been complete. Situations would have been totally reversed....... One scenerio had Crazy Horse remarking of a "better fight over here" when Reno had retreated and Custer had arrived, and Crazy Horse invited warriors to a new fight. If Custer's attacks had lined up in unison, Crazy Horse would have likely said something more laced with desperation, like " quick, another fight over here, they keep coming". The numbers and tactics would have been the same, but the very timing of the event is a major crapshoot for Custer, because that would have decided his victory and I know thats what he had planned.
Did the Indians have too much time to breathe? I think so. They had way too much time to scalp and loot and holler themselves ready for more battle. They were already wearing Custer's boots when they went to confront Reno and Benteen as they retreated.
Post by benteeneast on Feb 15, 2008 10:02:09 GMT -5
The plan I believe required an immediate one, two, three attack. So the plan was good but the timing was not. Reno brought them to battle and Custer should have immediately attacked those same Indians with Benteen securing the packs and providing the full support of the Regiment.
If you follow what I believe Strange was stating then by extending the time between each of these small unit contacts it allowed the Indians time to get ready and address them one at a time and also time to be more confident.
Would they have been so confident while chasing Reno if Custer came from their rear and Benteen seeing this came to support also. I think not. Instead the Regiment was fed to the Indians in pieces with not more than three companies engaged at any one time until Custer's battalion was gone and the remainder of the Regiment left at Reno-Benteen.
It all started downhill with the lack of immediate support to Reno is my theory.
Wow, a sensible post from Strange! I agree, timing was a major mess-up. But I think to be really effective, all three battalions would have had to hit them pretty close to the same time, and preferably from three different directions, as at Washita. But then the question is, given the extremely large number of warriors, would the Seventh still have been in major trouble?
Post by benteeneast on Feb 15, 2008 10:57:17 GMT -5
The village size was too large to hit from dispersed and entirely different directions at precisely the same time in my opinion. Taking on 900 to 1,000 Indians and a decisive victory would have been sufficient. Custer could have been trying to hit the other other end. I don't know. But it took to much time.
I can't believe that the preferred place to gather the Regiment is near Last Stand Hill rather than the Valley with it highly defensible, by the whole Regiment, timber area near by.
Post by custerwest on Feb 15, 2008 11:17:38 GMT -5
The Calhoun Hill-Keogh sector was a good defensive perimeter which was gaining time for Benteen to come. Benteen's constant delays forced Custer to wait for him, before coming down Medicint Tail Ford to help Reno with a flank threat to the Indian village. But Reno was a drunk coward and he left his men alone - and eventually Custer with the whole Indian threat.
Custer couldn't strike without Benteen, the matter was taking the whole village into the reservation, not making the whole village scatter.