Post by Doug Mills on Jul 27, 2020 19:23:59 GMT -5
I need your *help, *wisdom and *calculators on this question. (I'm terrible with math calculations) (lol)
Custer's time of being mortally wounded? Now I know, what the three of you- Keogh/Robb/Benteeneast are thinking. Doug that is a stupid question.................hold the phone I say. (lol)
Weeks back, I drew this map of Curley's escape and on this map I have Curly passing through this interval, one mile away he pauses and briefly looks upon the conflict. Then he moves on and see's horses running away. He then goes back for a horse or two? Now in this time period, can it be calculated about when, Custer was mortally wounded?
I wish somebody would figure that one out, or a rough time it which that could have happened?
I leave this problem solving to you's, the PRO's!
Must get back to reading and to nice outside tonight to be trapped here inside the house behind this computer.
Last Edit: Jul 27, 2020 19:25:31 GMT -5 by Doug Mills
General of the Army (Medicine Man/Chief))
It occurred to me during deep sleep the Custer was killed by the Sheriff of Nottingham who cut out his heart with a wooden spoon. I then realised that Benteen didn't have a clue what happened and was on record stating only two dead cavalry horses were o Custer's battleground.
Anysways - as is always the case, his wife knew more than he did.
I do hope that all are well and in good cheer! Hurrah.......... !
Kuhlman had significant help in formulating his theory of the battle. Whilst all participants had passed away by 1951, he was able to get the actual events from Custer himself. Custer came to Kuhlman on the battlefield and they had a good old chat. True.
Last Edit: Sept 2, 2020 14:43:44 GMT -5 by moderator
If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and looks like a duck ~ it is probably a goose.
When I was reading Charles Kuhlman/Legend to History, he wrote of the skeletal horse and it's position suggest that *Keogh was still mounted, when he was bowled over by the stampeding horses. When Keogh's horse was run over it naturally threw it's rider toward the northeast as it went down. Apparently neither man nor horse rose again.
Why would Charles think this, when he obviously knew Commanche was Keogh's horse.
Secondly I thought Keogh was shot in the knee or leg, fought desperately to the end and was more or less standing when this on rush, over powered him and his men.
From what I read, Myles Keogh was doing all the work, shielding wounded & retreating men, desperately fighting till the end, where as not much took place up on Custer Hill. We need a new painting titled Keogh's Last Stand...........
Yes, Keogh certainly had his own 'last stand' that day. Kuhlman, like most of us, was merely engaging in describing his own personal model of what happened to Keogh that day. Unfortunately, in those early days very few students of the battle bothered very much with Indian accounts, not being able to make heads nor tails of them. So they developed theories based to a large measure on where the markers were found. Kuhlman can be picked apart today, but in his time, his research was highly regarded and was imo a cut above that of his contemporaries: William Graham, Brininstool & Dustin.
Kuhlman worked with Brininstool, They were together at the Charley Reynold's marker on the Pitsch Farm near the road. Dustin was there. Graham provided Brininstool with the ammunition by providing Benteen's sketch of the Reno skirmish line, which was used at RCoI. The sketch was made at LBH in July 1877 during the mission to collect officeer's remains and annotated by........... Benteen in publication. Graham recovered the sketch in his work on the Inquiry and it launched a thousand theories which can never be corroborated because they originated to late. Everyone who fought was dead.
It's a very, very important sketch. Benteen did not see Reno's skirmish line. He saw something else.
Last Edit: Sept 2, 2020 14:43:16 GMT -5 by moderator
If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and looks like a duck ~ it is probably a goose.
Post by Doug Mills on Jul 28, 2020 17:53:25 GMT -5
You and Steve have lost me? This before & after information, what exactly do you mean, about this dated material which you speak of? *Interested to know what you's were getting at? Obviously it's different material you's have read.
I'm too MELLOW, to get worked up about who's right and who's wrong. I *RESPECT all you guys/*PRO's, sometimes see it a little different than you's, but it's because I'm either studying it for the first time or I'm reading material with an author's slant and he's convinced me...................then later I find out from you guy's, I was wrong. (If you's would have told me this before, I wouldn't question you's??? (lol)
Last Edit: Jul 28, 2020 17:55:58 GMT -5 by Doug Mills
General of the Army (Medicine Man/Chief))
The book, HERE ia an interesting read for its insights into Graham's mindset and his rounded view of events in the forward as an advocate. A professional military advocate who took up Benteen and Reno's part in the changing of history's perspectives and understanding. Perceptions of Custer evolved and altered across the breadth of society and this continues.
If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and looks like a duck ~ it is probably a goose.
Again, you're not paying attention to what I said in the brief note. It's post-archaeological literature (i.e. 1980's) that "theory" came into play concerning movement north of LSH...! One may lead a horse to water, but it's up to the horse whether it drinks or not...! B'east, you must develop a thirst for...water...!
Benteen included the activity north of LSH, and Kohlman included that in his book (literature, right?). It wasn't a theory at all. It is what Benteen saw on the ground. When Benteen drew the line across Cemetery Ridge, it is a fact he didn't just make up a theory and drew a line on his where he theorized something happened. I would agree that the dead soldiers along BRE are theory and that later finds confirmed that Benteen was correct.
JSIT and the Cheyenne activities have nothing to do with post-archaeological finds. I think you confuse facts (artifacts) with theory. There is no doubt that artifacts prove soldiers were there. The opinions are which soldiers were there, not that they were there. There were markers down by Putt's that were observed by an NPS employee. There is a picture of a participant marker along the old entrance road, which is adjacent BRE and north of CR and LSH. There are pictures of kneeling infantry facing in two directions taken on Cemetery Ridge. A battle participant did the soldiers' placement, and it is not theory.
Post by Doug Mills on Jul 29, 2020 18:01:06 GMT -5
*THANKS and I will look up this book online and if it's affordable, purchase a copy and read. As a student, I'm just learning all this material and trying to make heads or tails out of it. You guy's have taught me a lot already and continue opening up more windows for me to look through. I mean there is so much to learn and take in with this GREAT battle. I do jump around on different subjects, verses locked into one particular area of the battle. It seems whatever *interests me at the moment, receives my attention.
Last year I read this book titled - The Man Who Survived, Custer's Last Stand - Billy Heath - and it was quite good or the *facts/evidence as it was presented. I am a *believer that this Billy Heath actually survived. I mean the guy joined the as a Pvt. and a farrier for Company L and did manage to escape the carnage.......................
I mean, if he had been killed, he wouldn't reappear later back in Pennsulvania and have more children with his wife. If that wasn't proof enough, then what is?
The HORROR of it all, he avoided and probably didn't want people to think he was a coward for escaping. He's not about to draw attention to himself, be arrested by a military court and sent to prison, instead kept a low profile afterwards and his mouth shut..............................
Any person who has experienced HORRIFIC trauma, watched others being killed, would rather avoid talking about it as much as even think about it....................
So to say this Billy Heath wasn't there, when he actually was and escaped, is something the scholars themselves need to prove otherwise, but they haven't.
I have to look at all the pieces to this puzzle/battle to draw my own conclusions. I can't just read one book and say, WELL that's that. I think, there are far too many people who do just this with Custer/Battle. They don't research the FACTS. They read a Custer book and move on to Huckleberry Finn novel, then to Better Homes and Garden and then on to a Romance Novel, etc. etc and are the last person's, I would ask thoughts on the matter.
Last Edit: Jul 29, 2020 18:07:24 GMT -5 by Doug Mills
Post by benteeneast on Jul 30, 2020 11:18:20 GMT -5
The focus of the earlier books was where the five companies ended up and not how they got there. They took an easier route to investigations knowing Custer was in Reno Creek and then went to the bluffs. The early authors identified the locations of the marker to form their theory. They ignored what Benteen wrote and drew about his findings on the battlefield. Benteen had an obligation to look over the battlefield, and he did. The focus was on the United States government-owned land.
The earliest findings are from the 1930s: Nye, Blummer, Cartwright, and Luce. In the National Park Service publication Historical Handbook No. 1,1949.,on page 31, there is a picture of the old entrance gate. So the road construction was before 1949. The old entrance location is north of Last Stand Hill by a substantial distance. During the road construction, they found numerous artifacts, including a Colt SAA revolver.
The information was there and in the literature at the time, but the battle was about Custer's last stand.
Fox postulated from the same information available since the battle that some troops had moved north of LSH, so the evidence was there. The findings on Custer Ridge Extension added to the confirmation that found during the road construction. That old roadbed area was most likely the route used to withdraw to Cemetery Ridge by E and F. Where the road meets the current NPS boundary; there is an Indian artifact site.
Some felt Benteen's original comment regarding throwing a handful of corn was a slam against Custer, and people ignored what it could represent. I believe it was a retrograde, and it would look like throwing a handful of corn. The five companies were on the move, in my opinion. The Indians fixed and destroyed them. E and F were holding the rear defending against the advancing Cheyennes from the Ford Ds. C, I, L were moving south and west when fixed and destroyed.
I am reposting here a portion of a post by denali with his perceptive analysis of the meaning of Benteen's last orders: ...
Wasn't the P.S. actually an Ampersand? George Kush mentioned something about Cooke using Ampersands that looked like that in other writings. Was Cooke mounted when he wrote and delivered the message?
Yes, I was impressed by Denali's analysis of Benteen's last orders from Custer. It makes very good sense. Yes, George Kush, an expert on all things dealing with Col. W.W. Cooke, confirmed his belief that the 'P.S' in the message was actually Cooke's method of writing an ampersand. And yes, Cooke would very likely have been mounted -- although not moving on his horse -- when he wrote the final message carried by John Martin that day. There are no published accounts which describe him as dismounting to write the note, and Martin's own public accounts indicate they were both mounted when given the orders. Private accounts might differ.
Thank you. I watched the scene from the upcoming film & it had Cooke dismounted when writing the message. That film looks great! Did Custer say something to the effect of "Hurrah! We caught them napping boys! Now lets go get 'em boys, lets finish this up and head home to our station!" before or after Cooke wrote the message?
Last Edit: Jul 31, 2020 10:53:57 GMT -5 by moderator
If the Indians that fought Reno could not block Benteen from proceeding to Calhoun then how is it that same Indians in some theories effect so much damage to Custer's 5 companies?
I think we must keep in mind that if Benteen actually attempted to advance on the Luce/N-C Ridge complex, this advance would have been supported by Keogh's battalion on Calhoun Hill. Any Indians attempting to thwart this advance from the north would have been caught in a crossfire due to this support. It would not be a matter of the hostiles taking on Benteen's 4 Companies alone.....they would be dealing with 7 Companies of Cavalry.....an entirely different matter to consider.
P.S. The main reason these Indians were successful against Custer's 5 Companies was due to the fact that these companies were separated and not in real supporting distance with each other when they were overwhelmed.....a classic case of divide and conquer. Had the 5 Companies remained together, I believe they would have survived this battle relatively intact.
I agree, Robert Nightingale said in the Bill Curtis video that such a move would've startled the Indians.
Our models are quite similar. I this detail we differ, but I can't say yours is wrong. <g> I'm trying to envision a group of a dozen Soldiers along a razorback ridge, with half on one side aiming over the top facing west, and the other half dozen on the west side pointing their carbines over the top facing east. Not a very plausible picture. <g> I'm also worried that on this higher ridge, they'll take long distance bullets from both sides in their backs, regardless of which way they point...perhaps not a great position.
Clair, my model of Keogh's deployment of I Co's 1st platoon atop the military crest of Battle Ridge would have roughly 20 dismounted troopers positioned about 10 - 20 yards below the summit of the ridge facing eastward to suppress the fire from any warriors attempting to shoot down into the horseholders or reserves from the eastern ridges. Once C Co. had been sent down to occupy Finley Ridge, I have Keogh sending 10 of these dismounted troopers over to the western slope of Battle Ridge (about 10 - 20 yards below the summit to cover the right flank of C Co.) I did not mean to suggest that these troopers would be firing over the top of the ridgeline in opposite directions! lol. That is not what I meant by deploying on the military crest. Here is a better definition of it:
Military crest is a term in military science that refers to the shoulder of a hill or ridge rather than its actual or topographic crest (highest point). It is the highest contour of elevation from which the base of its slope can be seen without defilade.
Defensive forces usually locate themselves on the military crest. This gives them the ability to see approaching attacking forces and leaves room for withdrawal uphill under pressure. Also, troops occupying the military crest tend not to be silhouetted against the sky as they would be were they on the actual crest, making them more difficult to spot.
Finally, I am leery that even if they risked such a position, I don't see how they could have been overrun very quickly, rather than fighting an orderly withdrawal, just like Godfrey did later, back to either Calhoun or Custer hill. By the bodies we know this didn't happen, so I am skeptical of a model that has I Co in any skirmish line. But things CAN happen....
I agree with your sentiments here Clair. I don't believe these dismounted troopers from 1st platoon were ever overrun or driven from their postion atop the ridgeline. I believe that Keogh himself rallied them and led them down into the swale in an attempt to counter the threat against their horses. I don't think that Porter was able to stabilize the situation there with the roughly 20 men of 2nd platoon (possibly dismounted holding their horses). He needed immediate support or Keogh's battalion would lose all their horses and spare ammunition.
The lack of bodies would suggest that these skirmishers at the top of Battle Ridge were not forced down into the swale by opposition from the west, but rather charged down of their own volition.
See, I don't have Keogh anywhere near the I Co 1SG before I Co gets involved. Porter would be with his 1SG. I'm convinced that Keogh was on Calhoun or down near Greasy Grass ridge when the big Warrior charge came...the battalion commander would not have been in control of any part of his former company.
I agree with you that Keogh, as Battalion Commander, was not attached to I Co. However, since I have I Co split into two platoons, one platoon I have remaining with their mounts in reserve at the base of the swale. They are led by Lt. Porter. 1st Platoon (dismounted as skirmishers atop Battle Ridge) was commanded by 1st Sgt. Varden. Keogh would have been at the southern end of Battle Ridge in a position where he would have clear visibility over all sectors of his defense (ie. all 3 companies). I do not have him moving down to Finley Ridge with C Co. on their advance. That's a move more likely made by Custer than Keogh. <g>
My model has LWM and others being killed by I Co fire as they come over the top of Battle Ridge, but I think much of I Co had already lost their horses by then, and were in knots down in the swale fighting off Crazy Horse's mounted men going back and forth through and around them, some of them dismounted and grappling with split off groups of I Co men (there's those "splits" again <g>). LWM could have been killed as part of ths fight, or as part of L Co moving off Calhoun Hill and charging toward Keogh, and LWM is right in the way...
It could well have happened that way, however, I think its important to keep in mind that both Lame White Man and Noisy Walking were killed on the west side of Battle Ridge and well short of its summit. Thus I surmise the most likely cause of their deaths was from a position just above them on the west side of Battle Ridge. It is interesting to note that there are actually two trooper monuments at that very location, just west of the summit of Battle Ridge and right above the death site of Lame White Man.
Yes, I do think this is very possibly what happened, in conjunction with everything falling apart in L Co's rear (Calhoun Coulee). Note that for this distraction to happen, C Co has to be gone from L Co's right flank...probably sent down to (or at least towards) GGR by the bodies found. Before C Co went here, they had to have been near L Co up near Battle Ridge, much like I Co was on the east side of Battle Ridge. So there was no need for any I Co skirmish line when they were right there...I Co would focus on the left flank of L Co, and C Co would protect the right flank.
I would agree with you completely on this deployment.
In your model (I think we've discussed before), you give Keogh the benefit of the doubt that when he ordered C Co to their deaths in Calhoun Coulee, that he and the presence of mind to pull at least part of I Co up onto Battle Ridge to "watch the backs" of C Co, just in case their charge failed and L Co' right flank would be exposed.
While this is possible, again, I see little evidence for it, and it would not really be "normal," or "simple" if you like, to take such a protective measure. The norm would be that Keogh would assume C Co would perform its mission to protect L Co's right and would not be decimated (or he would not have sent them down there in the first place), so there would be no need to put a firing line behind them on battle ridge.
My model differs in that I have Keogh sending C Co. down to Finley Ridge (as opposed to Greasy Grass Ridge). I don't think their mission was to suppress the hostile fire from Greasy Grass Ridge, but rather to clear out the large body of hostiles congregating at the southern base of Calhoun Hill at the location known as 'Henryville' where that mass of Henry cartridge shells were found. He made this move once he spotted Weir's company atop Weir Point. He was anticipating the immediate arrival of Benteen's battalion (and D Co. did get quite a distance down towards MTC before stopping.) Keogh was attempting to facilitate the arrival of Benteen's Battalion by clearing out the hostiles from the Deep Coulee area just below Calhoun Hill. The Finley Ridge position commands a perfect firing position into that area, and there is solid archeological evidence in Michno's book Lakota Noon that support that thesis. Keogh was well aware that there was a hostile threat in the Calhoun Coulee/Deep Coulee complex and would not have omitted the necessity of deploying a force of skirmishers to cover that possibility (imo). It was clearly the obvious thing to do.
My model, of course, holds that it is the hole in the defense, along battle ridge behind L Co on Calhoun Hill, that caused the disaster when Crazy Horse & Lame White Man and friends came pouring through, into the middle of Keogh's little "fire base."
I agree with you on this, but of course, we do differ on the initial direction from which this attack came. You have the Crazy Horse attack joining in with Lame White Man's from the west, whereas I have Crazy Horse attacking from the eastern ridges just after Lame White Man's attack was repulsed.
Something like that is sure to have happened. I'm not sure Keogh this early ordered L Co to leave Calhoun Hill...the evidence tells me that I Co was pretty well engaged for many minutes before L Co moved in their direction, but this is more perception than hard evidence.
I cannot say whether Keogh ordered L Co. to support the action in the swale or not. I do not have Keogh positioned atop Calhoun Hill, but rather north of it atop the southern end of Battle Ridge pretty close to where you have him located (at your 'K' marker) in your map. Once Keogh realized the threat to his horses, he would have ridden directly towards his dismounted 1st platoon, rallied them atop Battle Ridge and then led them directly down into the swale to support Lt. Porter's embattled 2nd Platoon and the horseholders. I think once Lt. Calhoun realized the direness of the situation, he ordered the withdrawal from Calhoun Hill to the support of Keogh's troopers down in the swale.
It is a plausible model...Gordie knows, for sure.
I think both of our models are quite plausible. Hey Gordie.....if you're reading this, how 'bout sending us a clue? <g>
Could this be explained by Keogh possibly being shot near the river, and possibly ending up getting put out of commission early in this episode? Ranger Donahue said that one of his shoes and one of his bloody stockings was found near the river, which I think was Medicine Tail Coulee/Ford.