The book can be read online at Hathi Trust with maps detailing the terrain and blow by blow, almost trooper by trooper, run down of the command's destruction. You haven't studied the battle until you get to grips with Kuhlman; who basically blamed Weir and Company E for the defeat.
Thanks for the link to the Kuhlam book. I have not read it yet. What is controversial about it? It starts out like others defending his honor.
Last Edit: Jul 6, 2020 16:09:34 GMT -5 by culpeper
General of the Army (Medicine Man/Chief))
1 The location of Reno's skirmish is complete fantasy. Dreamt up by Brininstool. 2. The concept of the Custer fight's end. 3. The reason for the Custer fight's end. 4. 2 becoming the basis of modern Ford D theory.
Note - I can accept the lower crossing theory and the battle fought south to north, but for a couple of little things. The theory matriculated after all participants had passed away. Not one military participant of the battle identified the scenario as taking place. As with the Reno fight being transplanted to affiliated land for posterity - the same is taking place with the Custer fight. Reno skirmished downriver of the Garryowen loop but this is not the modern output because land upriver is accessible for tours. This is exactly the same the Crazy Horse photograph.
If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and looks like a duck ~ it is probably a goose.
Post by benteeneast on Jul 11, 2020 8:18:43 GMT -5
Not one military participant lived from the five companies. That makes it hard to determine what occurred and decision making between the time they split in MTC and the end where they were fixed and destroyed.
Mcguire map number 4 shows two routes to LSH. It also shows the end route of E leaving Cemetery Ridge crossing Cemetery Ravine and moving down Deep Ravine. The end is near Deep Gully (a part of DR).
Benteen who was a military participant drew a map of the battlefield. He drew a trail across CR. He also drew where he believed dead soldiers were located consistent with BRE.
Cheyenne accounts have them observing Custer moving down from Weir while they were getting their horses north of the river. They come around and meet Custer as Custer was moving toward Ford Ds. Custer retrogrades from there and they move back across CR and BRE. Since the Indians moved across CR in pursuit with sufficient numbers to change Custer from an offensive movement they would also cover the tracks of troop movement.
The Cheyennes have always told this account from participants that were among the group that attacked from the north. There are at least three other groups of Cheyennes. Some came from the Custer Creek area. A hunting party returned from the north end of MTC. Finally, some Cheyennes crossed at MTC. The point is that Indian accounts can be concurrent events at different locations. There is no final Indian report that combines all the individual actions.
Years later we have the archeology discoveries that are consistent with Benteen's map and travel by troops on BRE. There are a few artifacts at the Ford D area. Some may have been removed during the construction of the new entrance road. The artifacts on BRE are consistent with troopers and Indians occupying a location that looks down Crazy Horse Draw and within range of Cemetery Ridge. 14 different trooper carbines were identified on BRE. 4 of those were also identified at the Calhoun Area location. These artifacts were in place long before any books were written.
There are two current theories that fit the BRE artifacts that I know of. Michael Donahue believes that E/F could have fired and ejected the cases on the way over to BRE. He believes that they moved out BRE and returned CR. The other theory (from the blue board) is that CIL moved out BRE and went at least as far as where the old entrance gate is located. They retrograded as far as the CA and FF before being fixed and destroyed.
The blue board theory has Army cavalry (armor) involved in the theory. Custer would move out across CR with E, F, and C, I. L would move out BRE in mutual support of each other. Then there is the retrograde. Michael Donahue has two pictures of kneeling infantry being placed on CR near the Admin site. They were placed there by an Indian participant. The participant had them placed firing in two different directions. One picture showed them firing toward BRE and the other toward Cemetery Ravine and Last Stand Hill. You have those pictures HR since I have seen you post them.
Benteen's battlefield observation comment on throwing corn is consistent with a retrograde under fire. It is not what we would expect of five companies of cavalry having enough time to go into a defensive position. Custer on full offense until he reached the Ford D area with possible a small recon and troops holding on BRE makes more sense to me than Custer being shot at Ford B and moving away from the other 7 companies. I have adopted the Gordon Harper approach to the battle. He was not on the boards to change others' opinions but to share what he believed. He was not likely to change his theory without sufficient evidence.
On a different subject and one I've been compelled to act upon, is my objection to the removal of General George Custer's statue, from it's present day location in Monroe, Michigan. I contacted the Monroe, Michigan City Council and explained my objection to these present day protesters/Black Lives Matter attempts to remove George Custer. That they had no right, no grounds and no permission to take such an action. This group of disrespectful protesters where ignorant to facts and the historical reasons for this statue. George Custer helped, hired and paid a enslaved woman, named Eliza to be his maid, who cooked, cleaned and became a close confidant to him, during the Civil War. George Custer fed young, slave boys who came to his camp/military tent for food & shelter. This statue of George Custer was not only a monument to *FREEDOM but a *LIGHT he carried throughout the war to dispel the darkness of slavery. These present day protesters/Black Lives Matter have disgraced that CAUSE for which *HE so nobly gave everything for.....................
May I now quote, a phrase from Helen Keller which defines the actions of this group of present day protesters.
"Self-pity is our worst enemy and if we yield to it, we can never do anything good in this world" *Helen Keller
Last Edit: Jul 12, 2020 7:01:14 GMT -5 by Doug Mills
Post by benteeneast on Jul 11, 2020 9:04:56 GMT -5
One of the insights I got on this trip came from my friend the Cheyenne elder. He had both of his grandmothers living in separate tipis next to his house as he grew up. He told me that because they came from different groups they would not talk to each other at all. They gave him information about history and customs. One group would eat everything from a deer and the other not so much. So when you get an account you would have to know not only the location but who the warrior was associated with during the battle. Passing on oral history certainly needs more attention to who the individuals were and how the account was passed on. A Kit Fox might have a different mission during the battle as compared to a Dog Soldier. My friend is a Dog Soldier.
Bonus: I learned that Western Yarrow is a good blood stopper and would be carried in battle.
Post by Doug Mills on Jul 12, 2020 18:20:16 GMT -5
Good to hear from *You. It's amazing how tribes can think so utterly different, yet live so close but refuse to speak to one another. Boggles the mind? I ordered the book Legend to History by Charles Kuhlman 1951. (Thanks to *Herosrest) I started to read online for free, but bought the book instead. I'm more accustom to holding a book, than trying to read online, it's not the same. I'm chuckling a lot as a read. This Charles Kuhlman has a way with words. He's very humorous or his play on words and thoughts on matters of the battle. I've read more Indian accounts of the battle and have come to believe the Indian stories; where as Charles doesn't put much stock in them. It's the same battle but such different perspectives as to who's defining it and how it all transpired. I don't know, if I will be converted to Charles Kuhlmans narrative or come away with more laughs? I'm only on the second chapter and can't put it down.........................
Post by Doug Mills on Jul 13, 2020 17:41:22 GMT -5
Yes this book is *GREAT and only on chapter 2. This Charles Kuhlman really knows his *stuff, doesn't beat around the bush telling the reader his thoughts. I guess that's what I find so amusing or funny. Other books & material I have read in the past, are either more mellow dramatic or gradual in their attempts, verses Charles approach to this material. I mean, I usually don't chuckle, as I read Little Big Horn Battle books, but this Charles Kuhlman has a way with words or expressing himself and does it *extremely well.
I mean I can't put it down when I pick it up, started reading the other night.
Last Edit: Jul 13, 2020 17:43:31 GMT -5 by Doug Mills
Post by Doug Mills on Jul 15, 2020 20:55:04 GMT -5
Yes this Charles Kuhlman's work is extraordinary, insightful, spot on and backed up with *F*A*C*T*S. He proves the shallowness to stories verses the fact based realities of how the battle unfolded. There is a danger to believing what one hears from exaggeration and misinterpretation, compared to theoretical perspectives and psychological analysis.
It's a *brilliant book, which examines the battle through a microscopic, magnifying class. It's clarity eye opening.
Could Captain Yates have been the officer that was shot at the river that White Cow Bull talked about?
White Cow Bull's account is highly unlikely, as it was directly contradicted by several other warriors who were with him that day. Aside from his account, there are no other Sioux or Cheyenne accounts of any officer being shot down in the river at that time. Had that event actually occurred, there would be multiple accounts describing such a significant event.
Post by cowboygeneral on Jul 22, 2020 19:41:06 GMT -5
Thank you. I saw something about Lt. Sturgis being shot at either Deep Ravine or Ford D on one of the Little Bighorn Facebook sites. I like those sites, but I tend to get confused sometimes because there is so much contradictory evidence out there. I just don't know what to believe.