Post by nanaotameoxz on Sept 6, 2008 8:38:18 GMT -5
Since the vast majority of accounts [there is always that one exception or two] said that nobody knew until afterward that it was Custer whom they had fought [one might think the brands on the horses might have been a clue - someone surely knew that he led the 7th], and since that hill on which he lay was overrun by looters and looky-loos and mourners and people looking for their relatives and others seeking revenge and etc etc etc, there probably were hundreds who passed by Custer's remains without knowing it.
Of course, not all of them passed by. At least a couple stopped to mutilate the body after others had stripped it and still others had taken his weapons [ala Two Moon, above - who like Theo Goldin seems to have been everywhere] or counted the first three coups on the body.
One should not scoff at such tales. Next you'll be saying that the warriors did not "shoot, ride fast and shoot again and swirled around the soldiers like water around a stone" or words to that effect uttered by the ubiquitous Two Moon. And don't forget that these tales must be true because A) they appeared in print and B) somebody said that they heard it said by whoever heard somebody say they heard it said by whoever said it to whoever might have been listening.
Post by bandboxtroop on Sept 6, 2008 17:01:19 GMT -5
Spotted Wolf was on the hilltop he received a pistol shot in the eye at close combat. Him and his brother came off the hill with 2 white handle revolvers (Custer's?) His revolver was stolen from the house in the 1920's. The uncles revolver is still some where on the rez.
Post by thehighwayman on Sept 6, 2008 20:24:51 GMT -5
I like the description of Custer standing alone with his ears falling off around him... or something like that.
Were NAs, in fact, given to the flowery and poetic imagery we read in 'their' accounts? I think not. Rather more likely, they expressed themselves in common terms of their everyday language. Without fancy descriptives. Translators and interviewing writers probably added all that Homeric stuff.
The difficulty is deciding how much detail they also added.
'The wine dark stains which covered the ground - passed from mortal view, as Night's cold fingers of deep azure grasped the sky, but for the far, far horizon's dying, wispy ribbon of fading gold.' - Running Wolf Tolstoy, 1894
Post by bandboxtroop on Sept 6, 2008 22:22:05 GMT -5
Keough its a bowie type knife and no mention is made of what make but Two Moon lifted off his body and it was id by the artistPaxton he collect alargeamouint of original items it went for sale in the 80's and is still in private collection. I have it in my database. Jimmy Porters knife was also recovered. But I have no clue where it is. Spotted Wolf and brother got the 2 pistols. Ive worked on this data base for 20+ years. Im working on the Slim Buttes and Dull knife fight recovered items. One of the surprisng facts I discovered is that Wooden Leg nailed it on the money for flags that were captured he stated he thourght 9 flags were captured which is exact. Custer's Battalion lost 5 guidons Reno's lost 2 guidons , Custers's personal flag was captured and the Regimental Colors which is documented as to being captured and it adds up to 9. Dr Marquis in 1927 came off the reservation with 6 Custer carbines 3 ammo belts and 2 sets of saddle bags. Would love to know where these items are today
The Indians were running all around, shooting and yelling, and we were all very excited. I only know of one soldier that I killed. It was just at the last of the fight when we rushed to the top of the [Last Stand] hill and finished all that were still alive. I killed him with my gun, but did not scalp him because Arapahoes do not scalp a man with short hair, only long hair. When I reached the top of the hill I saw Custer. He was dressed in buckskin, coat and pants, and was on his hands and knees. He had been shot in the side and there was blood coming from his mouth. He seemed to be watching the Indians moving around him. Four soldiers were sitting up around him, but they were all badly wounded. All the other soldiers were down. Then the Indians closed in around him and I did not see any more. Most of the dead soldiers [on Last Stand Hill] had been killed by arrows, as they had arrows sticking in them. The next time I saw Custer he was dead, and some Indians were taking his buckskin clothes. The Indians were quarraling, each trying to take the clothes away from the other. . . .
The fight was all over when the sun was there (position indicating about 3 o'clock [4 PM watch time -- Waterman has the entire battle, from Reno's attack to Custer's destruction lasting about 6 hours!]). The squaws then crossed the river and began taking the clothes off the dead soldiers. Sometimes one that was not yet dead would move a little, and the squaws would become frightened and scatter . . . . I saw many soldiers who were scalped . . . I went back across the river to camp after the fight was over. During the battle I was dressed in beaded leggings, breech-clout, a white shirt and a large warbonnet. My face was painted yellow and red . . . . The Sioux kept a close watch on us because during the fight Left Hand had killed a Sioux warrior, whom he thought was one of Custer's Crow or Arickara scouts, and the Sioux were very angry. The white people believe there were a great many Indians killed in this fight. I only know of 6 Cheyenne and 6 Sioux who were killed. There were many wounded.
I think the dearly departed Tricia tried to tell me about this account back when she was arguing that Custer's chest wound would have incapacitated him to a substantial degree and that there was an indian who witnessed him like this.
Godfrey reported blood over the mustache seeping down from Custer's head wound and Curley reported Custer getting shot in the head and "sitting down" before getting dinged in the chest and knocked over (and this would be my favorite part of anything that Curley has ever said). If I took a desperate stab and spliced these together, we might have "getting shot in the side" refer to him getting shot in the side of the head and this could be an account of Custer taking a little while to die from his head wound. But that is a desperate stab.
Or, we might also consider that Godfrey may have observed blood in Custer's mustache from Custer coughing up blood rather than seeping down from the head. Nevertheless, I've usually heard that the chest bullet did not get good penetration and was "lodged in the ribs" and up near the shoulder. If such is true, I don't think Custer would be coughing up blood from it.
Also again, in the same way that Ronald Reagan's bullet wound to to the ribs was almost passed over by his doctors, its very possible that there might be additional wounds to Custer and other people who died that day. Not every bullet hole gets found in an obvious place or leaves a Kennedy crater, there are many bullet wounds (some of the most deadly and high penetrating bullet wounds) that leave just the briefest visible mark..
One of those possibilities could be true, or Waterman might just be wrong, but this guy (for once) really does sound like someone who might have seen Custer.
I'm almost finished reading Gordon Harper's The Fights on the Little Horn and was somewhat surprised to learn that Custer's body was left unscalped and unmultilated by the Indians. Any theories regarding why?
General of the Army (Medicine Man/Chief))
Fairly soon after the end, those who needed to know it was Custer, did. He was identified by Cheyenne's who protected the body. Two Moons set three braves to stand guard over the body.
Discovery of Custer after the fighting is broadly disseminated and popular topic. Eli S. Ricker en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli_S._Ricker conducted broad body of research, including interview of Two Moon. His books are interesting reading.
Voices of the American West: The Settler and Soldier Interviews. Voices of the American West: The Indian Interviews.
Why exactly would two moons send 3 warriors, if he could order anyone which he could not? That sounds like a tall tale.
Amongst those party to events, one theme gives Custer's treatment as a mark of respect. It is probably a little more complicated than that but basically correct. It is true also that the brother, T.W. Custer was identified as the, or a leader of the troops, and terrible havoc wrought upon his body. Why respect the one and not other. Custer was mutilated to a degree but it was halted.
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General of the Army (Medicine Man/Chief))
Gentlemen I find it difficult to believe Custer wasn't mulatied when his brother and others surrounding him were.can understand this was to save Libbys feelings but find it puzzling why details of Tom Custer injuries were given which must have been just as upsetting for Libby and the Custer family.best wishes Trish.
It is forgotten now, in the way that time alters perception across generations and generation (of history), that initially, Rain in the Face ate George Custer's heart. The tale came out in the press that it was celebrated over at a huge victory celebration and paraded on a stick. Over time, it became Tom Custer and possibly one day, it will be proven to have actually been..... who ever's it was. Custer was mutilated, his thigh gashed, an arrow strategically placed and knitting needles pushed into his ears. His body was guarded, according to Two Moons in the Ricker Tablets.