With regard to the photographs of Yellow Nose. do you know if any of these were ever published, and if so where, the same goes for the drawing from the photo?
I don't remember more portraits of Yellow Nose other than the drawing in the Kansas City Star accompanying the 1902 story, plus the photo next to his tepee taken from a distance and reproduced in Mrs. Dyer's Fort Reno - or, Picturesque Cheyenne and Arrapahoe Army Life before the Opening of Oklahoma, originally published in 1896 but reprinted by Stackpole Books in 2005. There’s also the wonderful ledger drawing of Yellow Nose by Daniel Little Chief. It is in the Smithsonian site : sirismm.si.edu/naa/2016a/08658200.jpg
It would be great if someone discovered the photos taken by C. R. Duncan.
General of the Army (Medicine Man/Chief))
There is a tribal account of a sword attack against what may have been an officer either out of ammunition or with a jammed carbine.
I hold a strong suspicion that it was a family member of Deeds that took a flag after which his mount was shot out under him. This is shown in the Spotted Wolf/Yellow Nose ledger.
There is also drawing of a warrior and woman in close combat with a dismounted soldier who is being strangled, a la Ralph Goodman record of events divulged by Yellow Nose to his Chief. Goodman resided at Kingfisher. Among the Cheyenne War Women was Calf. Her husband was Black Coyote, banished from the tribe for killing Black Crane after LBH.
A further confusion exists with an injury to the eyesight of either Spotted Wolf or his adopted son Yellow Nose or both in charging closely into gunfire and being struck on the head by a gun barrel.
It popped up in a search and shows two Cheyennes with Springfield Cavalry carbines who were photographed by L.A. Huffman.
What is happening now is more and more old stuff being scanned and copied to interest sites on the web so maybe one day. I still remember immense joy years ago with a search that popped up a pre-battle FAL image of two of the 7th Cavalry companies at FAL in '74 or 75. Stared at them for hours, I did and nearly went blind. Yellow Nose was considered to be a holy man in later life and may have impaired his eyesight during Sun Dance's in.... staring at the Sun. Hence the LBH battle damage story may have been a confusion.
Born: 1850's; when he was about four, he and his mother were captured on the Rio Grande by Cheyennes and Arapahos led by Dive Backwards. His mother escaped, and he was adopted by Spotted Wolf. He was living near Geary, Okla., in 1909.
Career: Warrior, took part in many historical battles.
Collections: Public: JAM, MAI (350 ledger style paintings collected ca. 1880 by John Gregory Bourke).
Work Published: Catlin, Bodmer, Miller, Joslyn Art Museum (1963) ; Cohoe (1965)-
Thanks for the link to that directory of native artists, where it’s stated that Yellow Nose (of the Dog Warrior Society) was also known as Little Robe. This was the name of the famous Southern Cheyenne chief who survived both Sand Creek and the Washita, and remained in his reservation of the North Canadian in 1876. But according to Fred’s Participants book, there was another Southern Cheyenne named Little Robe (of the Crazy Dog Society) who did fight Custer at the LBH. If he captured a flag, and the Directory is not wrong, the merging of both trophy seizures into one (the one performed by Yellow Nose a.k.a. Little Robe) could be more easily explained –specially if Little Robe of the Crazy Dogs died shortly after the battle. But that’s a lot of ifs!
Do you have access to that page? You can't read it without a subscription. They show an ocr of the text but the articles are jumbled together. I started trying to untangle the text but don't want to waste my time if this is just another printing of the Inter Ocean article previously posted by keogh.
I do notice that the Washington Post Article is a week earlier (3/17/1912) than the Inter Ocean one. It also appears to be a reprint of a still earlier St Louis Dispatch article.
O'Keefe lists only the Inter Ocean article, and doesn't mention the Post or Dispatch.
By the way, I spent some timing searching for another Bourke but only find references to the soldier Bourke.
blaque, my pleasure to be useful. There is a bit more to the YN drawings.
Here is the Daniel Little Chief drawing and a record sheet, dating to 1891, which states, "He is the man who killed General Custer by stabbing the wounded man with a butcher knife in the fore part of the neck." A la Ralph Chapman account, and another drawing not to hand at the moment.
Now, a further item of interest - Yellow Nose drawing of battle scene with U.S. soldiers and an Indian warrior pulling man in buckskins from horse, ca. 1889. Link
Sorry for “butting” in here but was always under the impression the Yellow Nose in question in regards to the Guidon incident was a UTE who was fighting with The Cheyenne on June 25 1876. I THINK it was C Companies guidon that he capturned and then either used as a spear or pike to either kill or count coup on a dismounted trooper.
The artist ANDY THOMAS has a spectacular painting depicting the incident entitled “ Yellow Nose Counts Coup at Little Bighorn” I contacted his office manager,,who is is wife and a wonderful lady to visit with...about obtaining a print of the work. At that point they had not done any print runs but after visiting with her about Andy’s works and my interest in the Little Bighorn and reenacting ,,,she graciously agreed to do a run and she sent me number 1 of 200.
I cannot get a small enough file size to post here to do it it justice but will attempt to find a link.
"Thar goes yer Injuns Genral,,,RUNNIN like the DEVIL!!"
Dog's Story of the Little Big Horn Battle and Yellow Nose, an oral account told by his grand-daughter Florence Whiteman and published in the book Little Bighorn Remembered, 1999, by Herman Viola, with my annotations in brackets:
My grandfather [ie. Dog] said he could always tell who was going to be the best warrior. He told me about a little boy the Cheyennes captured once when they attacked a Ute camp. There was this little [Ute] boy standing around crying. You know how it is. One of the Cheyennes picked up the little boy and took him home on his horse. When the chiefs saw what happened, they said to the warrior, "Go give this little boy to an old lady to raise, a grandmother. We'll raise him a Cheyenne. We won't tell him he's from another tribe. We'll raise him as a Cheyenne and see what happens." [Note: This account describes the story of the Cheyenne warrior Yellow Nose, born a Ute before he was captured and raised as a Cheyenne.] Well, this little boy was raised by the grandmother. He was raised like a Cheyenne. Everybody watched him grow up because they knew he was not a Cheyenne. But he turned out to be the best of them.
My grandfather said [that] on the day Custer came to attack their village, the Cheyennes had runners watching in the hills. This boy was one of the runners. He came running down to warn the village that soldiers were coming. He told them how far away Custer was [note: apparently up Ash/Reno Creek] and what part of the day he was going to be there. He could tell [time] by the sun. When the sun gets to here, that's when the soldiers are going to come riding [into the valley]. ... When they put their ears to the ground, the runners could hear those hooves [from the shod cavalry horses] coming. They could analyze how far away Custer was. And they could see from that point those flashing buttons on their coats. One of the boys ran down to the village and on stayed up there [note: on the eastern bluffs]. The runner told them [in the village], "This is how far away they are."
Some of the warriors were down by the river in sweat lodges. [Note: These sweat lodges - over 400 of them - would be mistaken by later observers as wickiup shelters constructed for single warriors, thus greatly inflating the likely number of warriors at the Little Big Horn.] They were sweating. Someone sent the Crazy Dogs [ie. serving as the Cheyenne camp guards] to go down and tell them to get out of there and to get ready [for battle]. The Crazy Dogs also took the Sacred Hat Keeper, some of the [Cheyenne] boys and girls, and some families up into the [western foot]hills where they would be safe, where they wouldn't be hurt in case the warriors all got killed. They Cheyennes knew [ie. imagined] that's what Custer was determined to do, to kill the Cheyennes. [Note: Actually Custer's primary objective was the hostile Sioux village under Sitting Bull, not the Cheyennes.] So they left. The old people and the children, they went out of the village, but the warriors came running.
As the warriors were running around getting ready, a man got up and took his drum and began singing. He was singing his Suicide Song. And all these warriors who were getting ready, they were putting on their best moccasins, so that they could die in their best [clothes]. They were getting their horses ready too. They came running to this man who was playing the Suicide Song. They began dancing to the song. If you dance to that Suicide Song, it means you must stay out there to the very end, because you have made a vow to win or die. That's the purpose of the Suicide Song. [Note: This is likely a garbled account of the Cheyenne Suicide Dance that was performed the evening before the battle and related in detail by the Cheyenne historian John Stands in Timber. The essence of the story is related but the timing of such a dance during the height of battle is likely mistaken in this account.] Today if anyone sings that Suicide Song we would probably all head for the hills because we're different now, you know! But at that time, those young men came running over and began dancing. Some young girls, when they saw their brother dancing, why they said, "I'm going to go join my brother. I'll die with my brother today." Some of the first ones did that, not that many. [Note: This is likely incorrect. There were no reports of any female suicide warriors killed on Custer' field.] Most of the young women took care of the old ladies, the elderlies, and the children. That was their job.
My grandfather said that the Ute boy [ie. Yellow Nose] was the first one over there dancing to the Suicide Song. Then he got on his horse and he was leading the charge to meet Custer. This shows that he was raised to be one of the best warriors that they could ever have as a Cheyenne, but he wasn't [born] a Cheyenne at all, he was [born] a Ute. He was the first one out there to meet the soldiers. He made everyone proud. He showed everyone that [the] old lady did a good job raising him. My grandfather said that when the fighting stopped, some women ran up there to see who was still alive, to see who died, to see who needed help. Some of the dead were facing down, and they were turning them over. I read in a book somewhere that Indian women went through the pockets of the dead soldiers, robbing these men. My grandfather never said anything like that. [Note: Needless to say, that is not a denieal that it occurred.] He said they were worried because someone might still be alive that needed help, that might just be wounded. [Note: Obviously referring only to Sioux or Cheyenne wounded survivors -- not the soldiers, who were shown no mercy.] That's what they were doing out there. And he also said, "I really felt bad that all those young people died, including white kids. From what I seen of them, they were just young boys, like kids. They had to die because of Custer...." [Note: Many of these young boys died -- including the wounded survivors -- due to Sioux and Cheyenne intentions to kill them.]
Last Edit: May 8, 2020 22:29:10 GMT -5 by moderator
"The more I see of movement here (Little Big Horn Battlefield), the more I have admiration for Custer, and I am satisfied his like will not be found very soon again.”
~ Gen. Nelson Miles, Commanding General of the Army ------
"With our cherished ones deliverance within our grasp we waited breathless two hours, for the order that never came."
Yellow Nose account of the Little Big Horn Battle published in the Chicago Record-Herald and the Indian School Journal, Nov. 1905, with my annotations in brackets: Part I
The Indians are now living in western Oklahoma who witnessed the battle of the Little Big Horn, June 25, 1876, in which General George Custer and his immediate command of Seventh cavalry troopers were destroyed by the Sioux, northern Cheyennes and other allied tribes. It is only after much persuasion that the Oklahoma Indians will talk of the battle in the presence of a white person. Chief Yellow Nose, a Ute Indian affiliated [and adopted] since boyhood with the southern Cheyennes, took part in the battle and tells an interesting story of what he saw. He neither speaks nor understand English and is totally blind, believing his blindness to be due to a wound received in that battle. He has for years lived with Edward Guerriere on the North Canadian River, near Cantonment. Early in the spring of 1876 he left what is now Oklahoma to visit the Northern Cheyennes, of which tribe his wife was a member, and at that time the plains country was filled with rumors of the approaching Indian war. As a consequence Yellow Nose found it impossible to return to Oklahoma, [with] small bands of Indians being being in as great danger from white men as the latter were from Indians. His narrative of what happened is substantially as follows:
A few days before the fight with Custer the report spread that troops with Shoshone scouts were coming. [After the Rosebud Fight on June 17, 1876, Gen.] Crook had retired southwest after the Rosebud engagement and the Indians were keeping a lookout for his return. Custer came from the east, to the surprise of the Indians, who were not expecting an enemy from that direction. The Indian villages [ie. camps] stretched for miles [note: just under two] along the west side of the valley of the Little Big Horn, and Yellow Nose went from village to village on the night of June 24 to see the warriors dancing. Strict orders had been given against the firing of guns in camp, as the close approach of troops was to made known by two mounted carriers who were to ride at full speed and firre two shots as they passed each village. The day of the battle, June 25, was on [ a] Sunday. It was warm and bright. Farthest [north] down the river was the camp of the Cheyennes, a number of whom, including Yellow Nose and the great war chief Crazy Horse, went in[to the river] bathing about noon. [Note: Or about 1 pm according to the soldier's HQ watch time.] Suddenly the firing of guns was heard up the river, for Reno had crossed the Little Big Horn and was charging the upper villages, only to retire later in disastrous confusion.
Yellow Nose was of the opinion that Reno's command would have been surrounded and entirely destroyed had not the Sioux, whose villages he had attacked, permitted him to advance farther down the river instead of opposing him so quickly in order to protect their women and children, who scrambled upon ponies and fled westward. [Note: Yellow Nose missed the entirety of the Reno Valley fight, thus his abbreviated views on that action come from secondary sources.] Those [warriors] with Yellow Nose were delayed in rallying to the alarm owing to the absence of their ponies, which had been driven away [earlier that morning] to graze. By the time they had mounted they discovered additional troops [ie. Custer's wing] across the river to the east. The Cheyennes divided, [with] some going to resist Reno, while others, including Yellow Nose, crossed the river [note: likely at Ford B at the mouth of Medicine Tail Ford] where a small stream entered from the east. Ascending a promontory formed by this gulch and the river [note: likely a reference to lower Boyer's Bluff, lying between Medicine Tail Coulee and the Little Big Horn River], the Indians saw troops advancing towards them along the crest of a divide [note: likely the high ground between Medicine Tail Coulee and Deep Coulee terminating at Butler Ridge] that ran back from the Little Big Horn. This was Custer's command, which was coming at a gallop.
Yellow Nose, mounted on a fleet, wiry pony, was leading his companions, whom the soldiers evidently supposed were few in number at that point, as the crossing [of the river at Medicine Tail Ford] was difficult. Their mistake was soon apparent, as the Indians seemed really to be springing from the ground. [Note: Yellow Nose assumes Custer's intent at this point was to cross the river and attack the village, however, there is evidence that Custer's intent at this time was to engage in a feint or demonstration at Ford B for the purpose of drawing the mass of warriors to his front, thus allowing Reno to escape the valley with less casualties. If the latter scenario is correct, then the feint was successful.] The galloping cavalrymen pulled down [to] a trot. The Indians [then] grew intensely excited and set up their war whoops. The Cheyennes were not so well armed as the Sioux, who fastened quantities of ammunition around their waists, chests and arms. The soldiers fired first from their horses, but dismounted when they saw that the Indians were not intimidated. The regimental band [ie. likely a collection of troops trumpeters assembled at Custer's HQ detachment] began playing [perhaps the Garryowen?] to the astonishment of the Indians, but the music was soon lost in the uproar of the battle, and the musicians threw aside their instruments for guns. [Note: This concludes Yellow Nose's observations relating to Custer's foray to the vicinity of Ford B.]
(to be continued)
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Yellow Nose account of the Little Big Horn Battle published in the Chicago Record-Herald and the Indian School Journal, Nov. 1905, with my annotations in brackets: Part II
[Yellow Nose's account next jumps straight to the action on Battle Ridge.]
Yellow Nose said that bullets filled the air around him. A color-bearer [note: likely from I Co. on the slope just west of Battle Ridge based on other accounts], riding toward Yellow Nose, held his flagstaff poised like a spear. On the lower end of the staff was a brass ferule, and Yellow Nose, in his excitement, mistook the flagstaff for a gun and wrested it from the trooper's hand. The flag was probably a guidon, although Yellow Nose insisted that it was larger [than a guidon]. [Note: Yellow Nose here claims to have wrested a flag from the hands of a trooper, however, other Indian accounts related by John Stands in Timber claim he found a troop guidon left unattended on the ground, which he picked up and later used to count coup on a soldier. In a later interview, Yellow Nose did not even mention this rather remarkable incident at all.] He afterward gave it to a squaw. The [Keogh] soldiers soon changed from a stand to a retreat, as they were crowded upon by increasing and overwhelming numbers [of Indians from both sides of Battle Ridge]. Three stands were made in this retreat [by Keogh's battalion]. The Indians hoped at the beginning to get in the rear of the [Keogh] troops and gain the cover of the east slope of the [opposite Crazy Horse] ridge. The [Keogh] soldiers held this advantage stubbornly for some time, and in trying to dislodge the [Keogh] soldiers [from Battle Ridge] the Indians exposed themselves to a galling fire in the open. It was not until the close of the fight that the [Custer] soldiers were driven to the west slope of the Ridge [at Last Stand Hill].
The running horses filled the air with blinding dust, which, together with the [black powder] smoke of the firing caused great confusion. The yells of the Indians, the rattle of musketry and the tramp of the horses feet, were deafening. In the turmoil the Indians killed a number of their own warriors by mistake. One instance was that of Lame White Man, a Cheyenne [chief], who had put on a soldier's coat which he had found. A Sioux, thinking that Lame White Man was a soldier, killed him, only to fall himself at the hands of an Arapahoe who knew Lame White Man and thought that the Sioux was one of Custer's scouts. [Note: This is an interesting account of the death of Lame White Man, but must be questioned as to its accuracy. John Stands in Timber, a relative of Lame White Man, gives a different account of his death, mentioning that Lame White Man was wearing nothing but a blanket wrapped around him when he was killed. He also made no mention of Lame White Man being killed by a Sioux warrior, but rather that his body was afterwards scalped by a Sioux warrior who mistook Lame White Man for a scout for the soldiers -- likely due to the position of his body in the field. The Arapaho accounts of Left Hand, Waterman and Sage make no mention of this incident at all, although Left Hand admits to killing a Sioux warrior whom he thought was a Ree scout. It is possible that Yellow Nose confused the death of this Sioux, mistaken by Left Hand as a Ree scout, likely because of his wearing a soldier's sack coat, with the death of Lame White Man, who, according to his relative Stands in Timber, was not.]
At first the [Keogh] soldiers knelt and took deliberate aim, the fourth man [of each squad] holding the horses [of the other three who remained fighting]. As the confusion [of battle] increased after the retreat [of Keogh's I Co. detachment] from the first stand [on the west side of Battle Ridge], each soldier [then] took his own horse [in preparation to mount], to be in readiness for flight if the battle went against them. [Note: Or to be in readiness to move out mounted to a new offensive or defensive position.] This precaution [of securing their personal mounts] only hastened the disaster that followed. The horses grew wild with fright, and their rearing and plunging made it impossible for the soldiers to shoot with accuracy, [with] many [soldiers] pulling their trigger while their guns [were] pointed above them. Some [of Keogh's men] hobbled their horses by drawing their heads down and tying their reins to their forefeet. The Indians [then] charged so precipitately that often there was no time [for the soldiers] to cut or untie the hobbles, and man after man was killed beside his horse. Riderless horses stampeded in every direction. The Indians caught these runaways and took them across the river.
(to be continued)
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Yellow Nose account of the Little Big Horn Battle published in the Chicago Record-Herald and the Indian School Journal, Nov. 1905, with my annotations in brackets: Part III
Yellow Nose did not know General Custer and said stories told by Indians who claimed to recognize him in the fight were mostly lies. He encountered [an officer who he afterwards thought was] Custer twice, but did not know who it was until his body was found and recognized after the battle. [Note: Most of the warriors would not know they had fought against Custer that day until days or weeks after the battle had been fought.] Custer's buckskin suit, with red, bead-like berries on the fringe, his auburn hair and his distinguished appearance, enabled Yellow Nose to see that the body was that of the man he had fought. [Note: This is highly questionable, as all of Yellow Nose's previous accounts -- as well as other accounts of Yellow Nose related by other Sioux and Cheyenne -- indicate that Yellow Nose was involved in the fighting at Keogh's position along Battle Ridge, not at Last Stand Hill. Yellow Nose never identified this officer as Custer in any of his other accounts outside of this one.] Yellow Nose attributes his blindness to [who he now thought was] Custer. [Note: More likely candidates for this particular officer whom Yellow Nose was later convinced was Custer, was either Col. Keogh, Lt. Porter or Lt. Harrington, or an NCO from I Co. (perhaps 1st Sgt. Varden) who were the closest officers in the vicinity of Yellow Nose in Keogh's swale at that time.]
He had shot a soldier [note: in the Keogh swale area just east of Battle Ridge, according to other accounts], and following the Indian custom of claiming his man by striking the body with a stick, called "Koos" [ie. "coups"] in Cheyenne, ran toward him. The soldier called for help and several mounted troopers [note: likely from I Co.] rushed to his rescue. One was [the officer who Yellow Nose later thought was] Custer, who fired at Yellow Nose with a carbine at such close range that his face and eyes are still speckled with [gun] powder [burns]. [Note: In an alternate, and likely more accurate account, Yellow Nose does not identify the gun used by the officer as a carbine. As the officer was mounted at this time, it is highly unlikely that he would be carrying a carbine at this time. It is more likely that the shot was fired from a revolver.] Yellow Nose was not hit, but the gunshot cut a gash across his forehead, blinding him with blood. The bullet wounded his pony in the head, but not enough to disable it.
The Indian chief [note: another problematic statement in this account. Yellow Nose was not a chief, neither then nor afterwards.] estimated that there were about thirty men with [the officer who he later thought was] Custer, all on foot, when the last stand was made at a small mound on the [Battle] ridge. [Note: Despite the efforts of the writer of this account to convince his reader that this officer was Custer, surrounded on Last Stand Hill by about 30 men, there is no actual evidence to indicate that Yellow Nose was ever engaged in the fight on Last Stand Hill; it is just as likely -- if not moreso -- that this officer and about thirty men clustered about him was Keogh, or Porter or Harrington assembled at a small mound on the east side of Battle Ridge, in the vicinity of the fight where Yellow Nose was reported to have been.] [The officer identified by Yellow Nose as] Custer was bare-headed, his long hair flying in the wind. [Note: This is another red flag, as Custer had had his hair cut short just four days before the battle. This is an indication that the officer in question was not Custer.] As the Indians pressed upon him several soldiers lost courage and ran to lower ground, close to the base of the mound. [Note: If this position was Keogh's swale, it suggests that several troopers of Keogh's battalion ran to a position lower down the slope from the cluster of men surrounding this officer.] Custer [or this particular officer] shouted loudly to his men and drew nearer to them when he found that they did hear his voice.
(to be continued)
Last Edit: May 9, 2020 16:30:33 GMT -5 by moderator
Yellow Nose account of the Little Big Horn Battle published in the Chicago Record-Herald and the Indian School Journal, Nov. 1905, with my annotations in brackets: Part IV
His appearance [ie. the officer that Yellow Nose saw on Battle Ridge -- likely in the Keogh sector] attracted the attention of Yellow Nose, who was armed with an old saber, having lost his gun. Custer's [or Keogh's] men had fallen beside him like grain before a sickle, and he stood alone when Yellow Nose drew his saber and tried to cut him down. [Note: If this officer was Keogh, he was very likely not standing at this point, but rather sitting alone amidst his fallen men, as Keogh was thought to have been badly shot in the leg while mounted on Comanche.] The Indian's [ie. Yellow Nose's] pony was wild, and when [the officer he thought was] Custer fired a pistol at close range the already wounded animal bolted and ran beyond him. Yellow Nose charged [him] the second time, and again Custer [or Keogh, Porter or Harrington] fired and the pony sprang to one side. Getting his pony firmly in hand for the onslaughts, Yellow Nose rode squarely down upon Custer [or Keogh or one of his NCO's, perhaps 1st Sgt. Varden], and without danger, as Custer [or Keogh, or Varden or an NCO] had fired his last shot. [The officer he later thought was] Custer bent his knees as if to ward off the blow of the uplifted sword. [Note: If this officer was the already wounded Keogh, Yellow Nose may be suggesting that this officer rolled onto his back from a sitting position with his knees or knee in the air to ward off the impending blow from the saber.] He was struck on the back of his head and sank to the ground as if all his strength had forsaken him, while Yellow Nose, ignorant of the renown of his valiant adversary, rode on in pursuit of the few remaining fugitives [of Keogh's battalion running towards Last Stand Hill].
Yellow Nose did not claim that he killed [the officer he later believed to be] Custer, being of the opinion that the blow, which was with the broad side of the blade, simply stunned him. He said that there were tears in [the officer he later believed to be] Custer's eyes, but no sign of fear. Custer's [or Keogh's, Varden or one of his NCO's] body was striped [sic. stripped] and the plunder was divided among the Cheyennes. Bull Hand, a northern Cheyenne, who was brought to Oklahoma with [Chief] Dull Knife, gave to George Bent, a half-breed [and noted former Army scout] at Darlington, Oklahoma, a compass which he said he had taken from [the officer he later thought was] Custer's pocket. Bent presented this compass in 1879 to George Reynolds, once an Indian agent at Camp Supply. The Sioux took the battered band instruments [ie. the trumpets]. Yellow Nose laughed in telling how the Sioux paraded in discordant imitation of the bands they had seen at forts.
The Indian School Journal November, 1905
Last Edit: May 11, 2020 0:30:19 GMT -5 by moderator