fred
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Post by fred on May 29, 2009 17:23:57 GMT -5
Careful what you wish for, George. This is your idea. Fred: "Also... make no bones about it; there were plenty of warriors mixed in with the non-combatants and it is these warriors who I believe may have made it hot for Custer at Ford D. (The Indians weren't too concerned about Ford B because the village didn't end there and they may have thought if Custer was moving north, he would try to come in below their families, not in the middle.)"We could probably make a thread out of that one paragraph above. Are you saying that Custer went to Ford D in order to engage the warrior force that was moving along with the non-combatants? Why did he go there? Surely it wasn't just to recon the feasibility of crossing that far down. With time being of the essence, why would he only take two companies to Ford D to make a recon knowing that he would have to retrace his steps to pick up Keogh and return to Ford D? If he went to Ford D to strike the warriors gathered there, why did he only take 2 companies. In my mind, if Custer went to Ford D with any offense in mind, he would have taken all 5 companies. Gordie, if I remember correctly, thought that was exactly what Custer did. I can see no purpose at all for him to go there with less than half of his maneuver elements. The time for look-see is long past. Attack or fort-up. I believe Custer went to Ford D with two companies, not five. While it is my opinion that Gordon Harper was almost unparalleled in his knowledge of the Little Big Horn, I feel he drew the wrong conclusions with a lot of his theories. Since Gordie is no longer with us and out of respect for him, I will not comment further. I will, however, comment on George Mabry's statement, "In my mind, if Custer went to Ford D with any offense in mind, he would have taken all 5 companies."I agree. That's why he didn't take all five companies. If Custer took all five, then why did he return? He would have had the firepower to cross. The way I look at it today, when he was on Calhoun Hill and the 5 companies had re-united, he saw what he believed was the extent of the village's flight, but he needed to make sure. He dropped off Keogh with the intention of back-tracking part-way, then having Keogh-- with Benteen in tow-- meet up with him farther north. Some people who believe in the "5-companies-to Ford D-and-back" theory (it is not a new theory; Gordie did not come up with it), cite the Indian comment-- said by a couple of warriors-- that the troops were always together, all together. This is incorrect and it is misleading. Think about this: if Custer and all 5 companies were repulsed at Ford D, why did they return to where they died, moving into the teeth of the Indians' onslaught? Think about this: if they were repulsed at Ford D, where are the bodies? Think about this: if they returned from Ford D, why did Custer spread out his command the way the companies were found? Think about this: if the command was repulsed at Ford D, how come the only bodies on Calhoun Hill were from Company L? How come the only bodies in Calhoun Coulee and on Finley Ridge were from Company C? How come the only bodies identified in Deep Ravine were from Company E? And why Deep Ravine? A good deal of the necessity for speed dissipated once Custer got to Calhoun Hill and saw the Indians congregating in the Squaw Creek area; but he had to make sure and he needed both his rear protected and someone to brief and bring Benteen. It wouldn't surprise me to know that Custer took Keogh to the top of Battle Ridge and pointed out the area they should meet, i.e., Cemetery Ridge. George, this thread is your baby. You started it; I only did the steno work.Best wishes, Fred. |
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gamabry
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Post by gamabry on Jun 1, 2009 8:31:34 GMT -5
What I’d like to try to develop here is the reason Custer would leave 3 companies on Calhoun Ridge and go north with the other 2 companies. This has always troubled me the most when we’re trying to figure out who went where and why. Most of my comments are directed at Fred but I’d appreciate hearing the thoughts of as many of the other posters as care to state an opinion. Fred, you apparently agree that Custer was not “attacking” when he separated from Keogh’s battalion. If I understood you correctly you also don’t believe Custer rode north in pursuit of non-combatants. So, what was he doing? A great many of us have stood on Calhoun Ridge and Battle Ridge. The area where the village is believed to have stood is clearly visible from there. I don’t believe those cottonwoods along the river screened much of that view. From the separation point on C.R. northward, most of that village was visible. Here’s my thinking on it: If those flats contained Crazy Horse’s 1800 lodges, it would have truly been an intimidating sight…even for Custer. He had a major intelligence failure on his hands. If there ever was a time to keep those companies together (or possible even start taking measures to re-group the regiment), it would have been after he discovered he was facing three times the enemy he’d planned on. It was also time for action, not reconnaissance. I’ll never be able to embrace the theory that he went to the north ford for something as pastoral as checking the depth of the crossing. Since Gordie is no longer with us and out of respect for him, I will not comment further. We're not attacking Gordie. We're attacking a theory. And one that didn't originate with him to boot. If Custer took all five, then why did he return? He would have had the firepower to cross. He didn't have enough firepower to cross with 1800 lodges sitting on the other side and him with 2 companies. The way I look at it today, when he was on Calhoun Hill and the 5 companies had re-united, he saw what he believed was the extent of the village's flight, but he needed to make sure. He dropped off Keogh with the intention of back-tracking part-way, then having Keogh-- with Benteen in tow-- meet up with him farther north. Without specific instructions to do so, expecting Benteen to link up with Keogh would have been iffy in the extreme. I don’t know what Keogh’s mission was, but waiting for Benteen is very low on my list of probabilities. Benteen even said he was poised to cross at Ford A until he saw Reno's men on the bluffs. Think about this: if Custer and all 5 companies were repulsed at Ford D, why did they return to where they died, moving into the teeth of the Indians' onslaught? I don’t believe they attempted a crossing at Ford D or were repulsed at Ford D Think about this: if they returned from Ford D, why did Custer spread out his command the way the companies were found? My point exactly Think about this: if the command was repulsed at Ford D, how come the only bodies on Calhoun Hill were from Company L? How come the only bodies in Calhoun Coulee and on Finley Ridge were from Company C? How come the only bodies identified in Deep Ravine were from Company E? And why Deep Ravine? They were not “repulsed” at ford D but it is possible that they “turned back” from Ford D. Finding bodies clumped according to companies indicates that there was some degree of unit cohesiveness at the time they were destroyed. It’s not indicative of much else that I can see. A good deal of the necessity for speed dissipated once Custer got to Calhoun Hill... I’m not sure about this. In the face of such odds, speed was necessary in everything that he was to do. The outcome of this fight illustrates that. If Custer did as you think, it was this lollygagging around that played a big part in his destruction. He needed to act and act decisively and I think that might have been exactly what he did. Maybe he did keep those 5 companies together until he reached a point somewhere between Ford D and LSH at which time he decided he needed to go to Plan B which would have been regrouping or if nothing else, escape. And it was during this retrograde action and he was cut up and destroyed. I’m not saying this is what happened. I’m just looking for an alternative to the traditional viewpoint. I’ve read a lot of Indian accounts and from what I remember, they don’t exactly support this southward flow. I hope to take some time and go back over those accounts but this time looking specifically for anything might might support that view. The only thing I’m pretty sure about is that we’ve made some mistakes along the way as we’ve tried to piece together the actions of those 5 companies. George, awaiting his beating |
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Post by benteeneast on Jun 1, 2009 9:03:27 GMT -5
Without specific instructions to do so, expecting Benteen to link up with Keogh was have been iffy in the extreme. I don’t know what Keogh’s mission was, but waiting for Benteen is very low on my list of probabilities. Benteen even said he was poised to cross at Ford A until he saw Reno's men on the bluffs.
George I agree with you. Any theory that does not depend on Benteen going past MTC needs exploration. It does not have to be what happened but it could be and if we can't get past that everything Custer did depended on Benteen and the pack train then we eliminate many possible scenarios.
For sure Custer wanted Benteen to become engaged with the Big Village but where is not as important as doing it in my opinion. For the sake of this thread I would like to see a discussion based upon Custer actions not requiring Benteen and/or the packtrain.
Benteeneast
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gamabry
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Post by gamabry on Jun 1, 2009 10:15:20 GMT -5
Benteeneast,
Do you believe Custer left Keogh's battalion along the southern end of Battle Ridge while he (Custer) took two companies to Ford D? If so what would you guess was his purpose for doing so.
Do you think there is a possibility that a "reverse flow" of battle has any merit? By this I mean that Custer initially took all 5 companies possibly as far as LSH or Cemetary Ridge or maybe even further north?
George
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Post by bluehorse on Jun 1, 2009 10:22:04 GMT -5
George,
With reference to those Indian accounts of this phase of the battle. Because of an ongoing correspondence with Gordie before he so tragically passed on; sadly we had to differ over his theory as to the battle flow being a North/ South one rather than the more traditional idea most of us have been used to, being more than happy to be disabused of my own theories in favour of getting at the truth, I have gone back over those accounts time and time again, and although my poor old memory is like a sieve, I have to say that whilst few if any talk about a North, South, East, or West flow in a way that white people might understand it, my general feeling from the few clues one can garner from what they have to say, is that they are indeed describing a generally South to North flow to the battle. Incidentally, the accounts also reminded me that if you take a kind of overall feel from what they have to say, rather than just focus on what any individual might report, then one gets a definite feel from their accounts that once they seriously attacked the Calhoun area, that the whole thing was over fairly quickly, but; I'm letting myself get diverted here, besides which, this is another argument altogether which probably needs another thread to do it justice.
Gordies theory also drove me back to re-reading Legend into History, by Charles Kuhlman, which was I think one of the first books I read on the subject. Even back then, without any real knowledge of the battle other than the films and paintings that may have drawn many of us to the subject, I couldn't get my head around his description of the battle, and I have to say that it seems even less likely on second reading.
I think you and Fred are now debating what lies at the very heart of the mystery; interestingly, I think both forums have generally avoided debating the shape of the battle after Custers arrival on Luce, maybe because we all fear that there being so few facts to go on compared to the Reno and Benteen episodes, we will be shouted down with no ammunition in our heads to back up our arguments. Whichever way, like you, nothing makes very much sense to me after the command finally arrives at Calhoun hill, so much so, I have to confess to sometimes wondering if the idea that Custer was killed at the ford, can be gainfully moved up to Ford D, where in some ways I think it make much better sense of what followed.
So lets play the game, what if, {and I admit it's a big if, } what if Custer was actually shot at ford D, what would be the outcome? Obviously the first thing would be to get to hell out of there and see if they could save the commanders life. In those circumstances I envisage a frantic scramble back towards Cemetery ridge with a view to trying to re-unite with Keogh who will then be in charge and have to make the decisions. As they move back, all the while trying to find somewhere where they can deal with Custer himself, they find themselves being hounded by the Indians who have crossed at ford D behind them, they then come under fire from Indians to their front in Deep ravine, and even worse, off there in the distance, they can see that Calhoun hill is full of Indians which-can only mean that Keoghs wing itself is in deep trouble. With very little options now left to them, and with the remainder of the Custer family and clan frantic to get Custer himself out of there, they head towards L.S.H. and the scenario we all know so well.
So there we are, being unable to make sense of the Custer with two companies to the ford theory, or the Custer to the ford with all five companies idea, and having long thrown away the waiting for Benteen notion, you see what wild ideas I'm forced to fall back on. Oh dear, I think I can hear the sound of guns being loaded already
Bluehorse
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gamabry
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Post by gamabry on Jun 1, 2009 12:15:32 GMT -5
Bluehorse,
Thank you for your opinion. You’re one of the few I’ve read who has a lot of problems with the “Custer going north with two companies” theory. Nice to know I’m not all alone out there.
It’s been 20 years or more since I’ve read those Indian accounts so I’m just working off a rough outline of what I remember. Hopefully I’ll take the time to go back over them before long but I’m not real optimistic that I’ll find much support there but we’ll see.
If you’ve theorized about Custer being wounded at Ford D, who was with him? If it was just E and F companies then we’re right back where we started. What was he doing there with only two companies? Custer being wounded is not a bad scenario. That event could very well have precipated a withdrawal.
If you’re theorizing that Custer was wounded at or near Ford D (with all five companies present) and that his being wounded prompted a retrograde action that eventually deteriorated into the withdrawal being chopped up all the way back to Calhoun ridge, then we might have something. Now our problem is finding something to support this theory.
We’ll just have to see what else comes in on this thread. Someone may actually have a convincing argument for the two company movement.
George
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Post by rch on Jun 1, 2009 14:42:30 GMT -5
I don't think Custer was waiting for Benteen to join him on Calhoun Hill. If he wanted Benteen to join him he would have sent his adjutant to bring Benteen forward or left some sort of detachment behind to guide Benteen to him. At the time Custer sent Martin to Benteen, I think Custer expected to be on the valley floor when Benteen got up.
I think he held Calhoun Hill awaiting the effect of Benteen's entrance into the valley in support of Reno. He took Yates' battalion north the take a look at was happening there.
rch
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fred
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Post by fred on Jun 1, 2009 14:49:48 GMT -5
It appears this thread is beginning to take hold and we seem to really be getting at something here.
From my own personal point of view, I am hoping the "awaiting his beating," the continuing "sound of guns being loaded," and "we will be shouted down" atmosphere never rears its ugly head here, and despite vast differences of opinion we can conduct what is sure to be the most contentious of all issues in a civil manner. So far, seeing the "players," I think that will be the case.
I will try to re-clarify my stance on this whole thing and post it shortly, but I just wanted to say that there are several things I reject out of hand, and I do not believe there is enough thought-power or evidence available-- short of a cinemagraphic record of the actual battle which seems not to have surfaced just yet-- that can convince me otherwise.
Here they are:
1. That Custer went to Ford B with two companies with the purpose in mind of attacking across that ford.
2. That Custer went to Ford D with five companies, the natural corollary being the reverse, north-to-south battle flow.
3. That Custer was killed or mortally wounded at Ford B.
I have my own opinions and theories-- as you all well know-- but I am open to anything that,
A. makes sense, i.e., common sense;
B. is militarily feasible, i.e., reasonable and something a military man would do;
C. fits within a time-frame of approximately 1 1/2 hours, give or take several minutes either way. This time-frame would begin from the first volleys of firing heard by the men on Reno Hill up to the time the last of Custer's men died.
With regards to "C," we have to realize that movement from place to place probably ceased some 20 to 30 minutes before the last man died. Would you all agree with that statement? If not 20 to 30 minutes, then how long? (By movement "from place to place," I mean that Calhoun was already where he was to die; so was Keogh; so was Custer, et al.)
Best wishes,
Fred.
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fred
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Post by fred on Jun 1, 2009 15:21:03 GMT -5
I don't think Custer was waiting for Benteen to join him on Calhoun Hill. If he wanted Benteen to join him he would have sent his adjutant to bring Benteen forward or left some sort of detachment behind to guide Benteen to him. At the time Custer sent Martin to Benteen, I think Custer expected to be on the valley floor when Benteen got up. RCH-- While I wouldn't strenuously belabor your point about not believing Custer was waiting for Benteen on Calhoun Hill, I do not agree with all of your reasoning. First of all, sending the adjutant back-- or even a small detachment-- was entirely too dangerous. I do not believe Custer ever knew Reno was in trouble, but I think once he was on Calhoun Hill, he realized the way back had too many Indians in the way. Otherwise, what was the firing on Luce Ridge all about? (And I disregard the business about it being a signal!) Again, a look at a map will show you the only place where firing could have been effective was at the egress of one or two of the coulees into MTC. Otherwise, they were just wasting ammunition. With that in mind, I think one or two men-- or even a small detachment-- would have never made it back. A three-company battalion, however, was a horse of a different color. I also do not agree with your comment about Custer being on the valley by the time Benteen might arrive. Custer could probably see the dust plumes of both Benteen's column and the packs from his vantage point on the bluffs (and that may be questionable), so I think Custer may have felt Benteen would have been there sooner rather than later. If that were the case, he would have taken all 5 companies to Ford B and forced a crossing there. On the other hand, you may be correct and Custer's point of view changed once he got on top of Luce Ridge. I think he held Calhoun Hill awaiting the effect of Benteen's entrance into the valley in support of Reno. I don't agree here. Again, this statement assumes too much. The note was pretty simple and I think too many people try to make too much of it. To me, that Martini note was very plain: Custer wanted Benteen. He said nothing about Reno, nothing about the valley. If Custer wanted Benteen to support Reno he would have mentioned "Reno" in the writing. Martini knew where Custer had gone; Martini could have directed Benteen in the proper direction. If the Crows hadn't have pointed in that direction, it only makes sense that Benteen would have called Martini and asked him which way to go. He took Yates' battalion north the take a look at was happening there. I completely agree. As for the Calhoun and Keogh positions, vis-à-vis Custer's two-company move north, the "Benteen-watch" could very well have been ancillary to a bigger mission, that of protecting Custer's rear, and acting as a reserve or some mobile force he could use when he returned. The fact that I believe C, I, and L acted in tandem as a battalion formation, coupled with the placement of L Company personnel, tells me those troops were stationed there. The Indian testimony I have read corroborates that viewpoint. The specific reason is sort of like the five of us-- so far-- gazing into a crystal ball. Best wishes, Fred. |
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Post by wild on Jun 1, 2009 15:43:54 GMT -5
Just reading through the posts to get myself up to speed on the main points I'll venture one observation.
Custer has taken his troops to within one mile of the Indian camp.That equates to 4 minutes from 1500 warriors.People are considering an advance to Ford D,posting troops to await Benteen,direction flow of battle.All this indicates time which Custer does not have.The state of the battle field indicates no time not even time to concentrate for defence.
The light brigade covered a greater distance than that which seperated Custer from the Indians in less than 6 minutes.It is just not believable that Custer felt confident enough to engage in anything other than defence and he within 4 minutes of disaster.
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Post by benteeneast on Jun 1, 2009 21:27:00 GMT -5
What if Custer did not split the battalion into two wings instead the Indians split it? The battallion spends the rest of the time trying to unite.
Let the beatings begin.
Benteeneast
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gamabry
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Post by gamabry on Jun 1, 2009 21:43:58 GMT -5
Benteeneast,
Go for it buddy. I like it already. Flesh that thing out and let's take a look at it.
George
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Post by wild on Jun 2, 2009 0:59:44 GMT -5
What if Custer did not split the battalion into two wings instead the Indians split it? The battallion spends the rest of the time trying to unite. Benteeneast The simple explaination places the suggestion in the realm of probability.Complex suggestions have only possibility to support them. To think that at the point of greatest danger Custer had direct control of only 2 troops  ?? |
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gamabry
Sergeant (Elk Warrior)
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Post by gamabry on Jun 2, 2009 6:28:18 GMT -5
...To think that at the point of greatest danger Custer had direct control of only 2 troops ?? And that gets us to the heart of this thread. In the face of such an overwhelmingly large hostile force, why would Custer make deployments that resulted in him having direct command of less than half his troops? George |
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Post by wild on Jun 2, 2009 8:09:36 GMT -5
Consider George Reno's response when he came within sight of the village.He came to a full stop.
Now when Custer saw the camp he reacted similarly firng off the "be quick"message.This was not a hurry up and join in the fun message but the next best thing to an SOS.
"And that gets us to the heart of this thread. In the face of such an overwhelmingly large hostile force, why would Custer make deployments that resulted in him having direct command of less than half his troops
There is a body of opinion which has Custer engaging in various manuevers such as deploying holding forces and sending troops on recce.This body of opinion allows Custer time,ignores the overwhelming numbers arrayed against him and ignores the impossibility of attacking across a river.
Custer was up the creek without a paddle and the wind against him.
And if that is not all I think a case can be made that he realised the jig was up and froze.
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We could probably make a thread out of that one paragraph above. Are you saying that Custer went to Ford D in order to engage the warrior force that was moving along with the non-combatants? Why did he go there? Surely it wasn't just to recon the feasibility of crossing that far down. With time being of the essence, why would he only take two companies to Ford D to make a recon knowing that he would have to retrace his steps to pick up Keogh and return to Ford D? If he went to Ford D to strike the warriors gathered there, why did he only take 2 companies. 
??