Otter Creek Bed (Reno Valley Fight)

[keogh]

Sept 26, 2019 8:43:25 GMT -5 benteeneast said:

Bill I guess we can asked Kortlander if the Reynolds was the deciding factor.

Feel free to do so. Kortlander will be the first to tell you quite a bit about Jason's character and reliability. I don't know if the new placement for the Reynolds' marker was a deciding factor or merely a contributing factor. It makes little difference in either case.

We can asked Davey why they sold the property.

Generally people sell property to make money.

Seems to the intent move the marker back to where the wooden cross location would mean those that placed the Wooden Cross got it wrong according to you.

Not at all. The wooden cross was placed directly in front of the metal pipe that Camp set in place (and is still there). You can see it directly behind the cross in the photo. The wooden cross was placed where the current cement foundation and pipe are located now. Not at the place Pitsch moved the marker to in the late 1990's. The azimuth is generally the same, but the distance is 200 yards closer to the treeline seen in the distance.

From their observation statements Indians rode in and out of it but it provided cover.

You couldn't fit hundreds of mounted warriors in Otter Creek either in 1876 nor in its expanded condition today for that matter, not even if you dismounted them and piled them on top of each other like stacks of flap-jacks.

garryowen,

keogh

[keogh]

Sept 26, 2019 8:43:25 GMT -5 benteeneast said:

I think you need to reread what Scott said about the skirmish line.

I have already posted up here exactly what Scott said about the location of Reno's skirmish line.

Have to go to work but will provide what Scott said with page number.

Regards

Steve

I'll save you the trouble. Here it is right from his book:

Regarding the location of Reno's first valley skirmish line: On page 57 of Scott's book Uncovering History, my comments in brackets:

"Mr. Pitsch found 11 .45-55 cartridge cases in the fields west of the Garryowen Post Office [located by the Garryowen Bend]. These cases are in a roughly linear alignment from northwest to southeast. Presumably, these cases identify Reno's first skirmish line [at the Garryowen Bend].... The skirmish line cases were found in a field that is subject to cultivation, thus some cases may be out of context. The fact that such a linear alignment as present strongly suggests pattern disruption by agricultural practices is minimal. Supporting the supposition that the linear case alignment represents Reno's skirmish line are the presence of .44 Henry, .50 Spencer, and .50-70 cases on a bench to the west of the line. These cases, about 25 in number, indicate firing positions occupied by the opposing forces. The location is consistent with the fact that Reno's line was outflanked and forced to fall back. 9 additional cases were also recovered at the west edge of the fields several hundred meters to the south, essentially below an old gravel quarry."

Conclusion: Archaeologist Doug Scott is telling us in the above passage that the artifactual evidence supports the location of Reno's 1st skirmish line in the valley in the vicinity of the Garryowen Bend of the river. This agrees with the findings of Vaughn and Dustin, and is based on artifactual casings found there by none other than Jason Pitsch, who naturally, would later attempt to relocate his findings to a different location much closer to his own property. Apparently, Doug Scott, unlike Fox, was not convinced by Jason's later revisions.

garryowen,

keogh

[herosrest]

The matter of Charley Reynolds marker and his remains became a convoluted confusion because the pertinent data was obscure but today, his topic on this board is enlightening. It's there to study.

D.D. Scott stated that relics were found to the west of the Garryowen postoffice. Without getting into map co-ordinates and GPS numbers, where imprecisely is west of the post office. Keogh put the Marquis map up at the beginning of this topic... so. i'll answer my my question, myself.

Attached detail showing the Store, Reno store and Reynolds. The map is here link

These relics are not those found on what was the Pitsch farmland. This has been misunderstood. The relics on the Pitsch land were left east of the river as it was in 1876. Those WEST of the Post Office are from the valley fighting west of the river.

West of the Post Ofice.

[herosrest]

link

[herosrest]

In one of the previous topics discussing Reno's skirmish, I posted a map dating from around 1900, which was drawn by the guy undertaking and responsible for irrigating the valley. I'm having some difficulty hunting it up but it is on the way. I think, memory, that his name was Grove..... but it's on its way. A map of the valley drawn by the guy irrigating it.

Here it is - link

[herosrest]

Hmmm.... I have just surprised myself............. there is no railway line???

[herosrest]

Sept 26, 2019 15:06:21 GMT -5 herosrest said:

The matter of Charley Reynolds marker and his remains became a convoluted confusion because the pertinent data was obscure but today, his topic on this board is enlightening. It's there to study.

D.D. Scott stated that relics were found to the west of the Garryowen postoffice. Without getting into map co-ordinates and GPS numbers, where imprecisely is west of the post office. Keogh put the Marquis map up at the beginning of this topic... so. i'll answer my my question, myself.

Attached detail showing the Store, Reno store and Reynolds. The map is here link

These relics are not those found on what was the Pitsch farmland. This has been misunderstood. The relics on the Pitsch land were left east of the river as it was in 1876. Those WEST of the Post Office are from the valley fighting west of the river.

West of the Post Ofice.

Let's ask fred.

[culpeper]

I've seen enough for me to vote that the cross and pipe is where, unfortunately, the area Reynolds went down. The pipe and inscription on top predates the cross. But yes, let's wake Fred up and ask. Seriously, not sure why Mr. Wagner didn't take this into account. Fortunately, I've spent enough time reading what is on record that Mr. Wagner spent a fair amount of time either defending his honor or too busy to respond. But, it doesn't destroy his theory. It just means the Pitsch timber is the least likeky of the two possibles. Seriously, if Mr. Wagner continues down this same road in Part II...Well, he is going to be forced to and doesn't have much choice. But there is a spot in the library for pulp fiction, which I happen to enjoy as long as it is accordingly cheap.

[keogh]

Furthering our comparison studies of the original vs. new marker locations, I am posting some pics of both markers taken from the same view shed. Take special effort to ascertain the distance to the far tree line beyond both markers noting the course of the LBH River, along with the line of bluffs just beyond the tree line. The markers (old and new) have the same general azimuth or line of sight, but the distance to the far line of bluffs is different. The new marker location has been set about 200 yards closer to the far line of trees and bluffs than the original marker and pipe. Take a look:

[keogh]

Here's the original foundation and pipe showing the same general line of sight to the far tree line and bluffs:

[keogh]

Now here is the new Reynolds marker after it was moved by Jason Pitsch, showing the same general line of sight as the two previous pictures. Note how closer the tree line and bluffs are in the distance. They are roughly 200 yards closer to the marker than in the two previous pictures. (At least, in my opinion, for what its worth.)

[culpeper]

They made the same stupid mistake I did when looking at the photographs on page 37, Where Custer Fell. In the newer photo that is not the Otter Creek timber on the left near the river. Those trees to the left are just stand alone trees in the newer marker sight. Almost everybody wants to get a shot at an angle of the newer sight with Weir Point in the background. This is where people get confused, which is all moot except to support the large inscribed pipe being the original location.

[culpeper]

Location of the cross and inscribed pipe: 45.522561° -107.409660°.   Camera direction heading 45°.

Watch just off the right horizontal board of the cross and the extreme right of the photograph paying attention to the ridge line.  You will see it lines up with the bluffs perfectly.  So, the original marker, without a doubt, is right off the east bank of Otter Creek bed. 

drive.google.com/file/d/1C3X6uIPwsGN59LMaEAU3tZkuR5adfKvl/view?usp=sharing

The site of the new marker is 211 yards from the original site at 44°.  So, they line up nicely along the same azimuth.  Likes two planets lining up. 

[culpeper]

Location of new Reynolds site: 45.523516° -107.407972°. Camera direction heading 43°.

Again, watch the bluffs in the background line up.

drive.google.com/file/d/1nlqagQhiYgRDnABzZNL2Zp3B4ZkZJLJR/view?usp=sharing

All I'm accomplishing is here is showing how easy it is to see two photographs and say they are the same spot. The author of Where Custer Fell and anybody else, including myself, can be easily fooled into thinking the new spot is the same spot the cross photo was taken at. It is the inscribed pipe that people fail to take into consideration. With the pipe, we know where the cross photo was taken and becomes our baseline. All a couple of morons did was take the original cross photo, figure the angle of the camera, and move it along that angle over 200 yards closer to the bluffs. It may not seem like much and it is all within rifle range but it makes all the difference in the world if you want to see which timber Reynolds was on the jump out of that makes the most sense.

[benteeneast]

Sept 26, 2019 14:59:30 GMT -5 keogh said:

Sept 26, 2019 8:43:25 GMT -5 benteeneast said:

I think you need to reread what Scott said about the skirmish line.

I have already posted up here exactly what Scott said about the location of Reno's skirmish line.

Have to go to work but will provide what Scott said with page number.

Regards

Steve

I'll save you the trouble. Here it is right from his book:

Regarding the location of Reno's first valley skirmish line: On page 57 of Scott's book Uncovering History, my comments in brackets:

"Mr. Pitsch found 11 .45-55 cartridge cases in the fields west of the Garryowen Post Office [located by the Garryowen Bend]. These cases are in a roughly linear alignment from northwest to southeast. Presumably, these cases identify Reno's first skirmish line [at the Garryowen Bend].... The skirmish line cases were found in a field that is subject to cultivation, thus some cases may be out of context. The fact that such a linear alignment as present strongly suggests pattern disruption by agricultural practices is minimal. Supporting the supposition that the linear case alignment represents Reno's skirmish line are the presence of .44 Henry, .50 Spencer, and .50-70 cases on a bench to the west of the line. These cases, about 25 in number, indicate firing positions occupied by the opposing forces. The location is consistent with the fact that Reno's line was outflanked and forced to fall back. 9 additional cases were also recovered at the west edge of the fields several hundred meters to the south, essentially below an old gravel quarry."

Conclusion: Archaeologist Doug Scott is telling us in the above passage that the artifactual evidence supports the location of Reno's 1st skirmish line in the valley in the vicinity of the Garryowen Bend of the river. This agrees with the findings of Vaughn and Dustin, and is based on artifactual casings found there by none other than Jason Pitsch, who naturally, would later attempt to relocate his findings to a different location much closer to his own property. Apparently, Doug Scott, unlike Fox, was not convinced by Jason's later revisions.

garryowen,

keogh

Bill

Sometimes I need to refresh my memory so I thought it might help you.

Page 82

Pitsch found eleven .45-55 cartridge cases in the fields west of the Garryowen post office. These cases were in roughly alignment from northwest to southeast. Presumably they identify Reno's first skirmish line. The angled alignment is more in keeping with and attack on the village site at Garryowen than an east-west as postulated by Vaughn (1966). A due east-west alignment would cause the soldiers to face obliquely away from the now-identified campsites....

Scott goes on and describes Indian sites that would be firing at Reno.

Page 85

It is possible that Pitsch's linear alignment of finds is merely the result of where he looked. However, the lack of finds by other collectors (e.g., J.W. Vaughn beyond the area in which Pitsch made his finds makes it unlikely that the pattern is completely fortuitous. Assuming that the pattern represents near approximation of the retreat route, the correlation with the historical record is excellent and generally follows that postulated by Greene (1986) during relic find assessment efforts, and it is concert with the interpretation of the Reno valley fight offered by Moore (2011) and by Swanson (2011) on the Pitsch relic evidence.


I think we have different books. You stated that Pitsch may have sold the property for money. Seems to me he had issues the Small Business Administration and collections. They seized and sold his collection at an auction. Some of the Pitsch property belongs to the Preservation committee and they know all about the valley and still bought it.

As far as Kortlander I have searched his history in Billings and formed my own opinion. Others can do whatever they wish. He has a book out on what the Feds did him. He also showed me Custer's gloves.

Regards

Steve