Otter Creek Bed (Reno Valley Fight)

[herosrest]

So, that Otter Creek is not man made for irrigation?

Addendum - Onion Ck.

[culpeper]

It appears to be a shallow drainage that starts on the other side of the railroad with improvements made on the farm at some point. It starts acting like a creek as it gets close to the river. Can't say for sure.

[benteeneast]

Sept 14, 2019 6:21:24 GMT -5 herosrest said:

So, that Otter Creek is not man made for irrigation?

Addendum - Onion Ck.

I have not seen any Creek in the valley made for irrigation. There has been drainage control but you only need to follow them back across the highway to see they are natural watersheds. The freeway cause some changes also. But long before man got involved those drainages were there. Flood control is not the same as man made irrigation. When it rains on the watershed it has to go somewhere and that drainage would have always been there.

Regards

BE

[benteeneast]

Sept 14, 2019 7:42:41 GMT -5 culpeper said:

It appears to be a shallow drainage that starts on the other side of the railroad with improvements made on the farm at some point. It starts acting like a creek as it gets close to the river. Can't say for sure.

If you back up the view you will see the watershed that produces the creek. I am sure it was there before the highway was built. The original channel would be closest to the river since they could care less where the water went after moving through the highway area. The discussion usually is whether it was as deep as it is now. There is no way to jump it now. But you could easily hide in it and ride out at certain locations. Sort of a ramp.

I think you have the brow labeled correctly. Bill may argue with the location. I talked with Douglas Scott and he believes the Pitch site is the correct location for timber area.

Fred will have book coming out soon on the valley fight.

Regards

Steve

[culpeper]

Thanks. It is located in that upside down V single contour in the topo as Mr. Wagner describes in that chapter. Well, he said that along with several other references. That has to be what he calls the Otter Creek bed. He has a picture of that and the brow to help determine both. He did everything but draw a map for the reader. His instructions are carefully written to find it as long as you know the vicinity from other reference work. Actually if you start from the beginning you can literally draw a map yourself from the Yellowstone and find everything.

[keogh]

There is no reference to any creek or drainage at the time of the battle for what is today known as Otter or Muskrat Creek (see the Philetus Norris map of the valley floor made in 1877 as well as the Marquis map of the area). That's not to say there was never such a creek crossing the valley in 1876, just that it was not considered any kind of significant terrain feature, nor was it any kind of obstruction for Reno to cross in reaching the end of the Garryowen Bend of the river where archaelogist Doug Scott and other battle researchers have located the Reno Valley Skirmish line. In subsequent years, Otter Creek was dug out and enlarged for irrigation purposes in the valley. It is today much larger and deeper than it ever was in 1876, and has led more than one battle student astray in their attempts to accurately explain the actual locations of the Reno Valley Fight from descriptions given by battle participants. In short, Otter Creek played no significant role in the Reno Valley Fight in 1876.

garryowen,

Keogh

[keogh]

To better illustrate my point, below are attached the Philetus Norris map of the valley made in 1877 along with the Thomas Marquis map of the valley made in 1927. Both maps of the valley reference the Garryowen Bend of the river where Reno's valley skirmish line was established. Otter or Muskrat Creek would be well south of that line (ie. between Ford A and the Garryowen Bend). In neither map is there any reference whatsoever to Otter Creek. It may well have existed in 1876, but if so, was an insignificant feature as far as the battle was concerned. If it existed at that time Reno's 3 troops crossed it with ease. No mention of Otter Creek can be found in any participant account.

garryowen,

keogh

[keogh]

Here's the Marquis map of the valley (1927):

[culpeper]

herosrest, is there anything particular you want us to see in that survey book?

[culpeper]

"so-called" creek bed on the other side of the highway showing it is a collection point.

[culpeper]

There is definitely easement so it can go to the river.

[keogh]

Here is General Godfrey's map (1891) of the valley, with no indication whatsoever of Otter Creek crossing the valley.

[culpeper]

It goes without saying that it is not on those maps. Nevertheless, there is a one contour dip there. I'm just looking at what appears to be remnants of a natural drainage. It has since been improved for irrigation and to still allow drainage to the river. It appears to have been one of many other small coulee like drainages that are not on early maps. Mr. Wagner claimed erosion and improvements took its toll on this land feature. I was just wanting confirmation that is the Otter Creek bed he is describing in his book. I'm still trying to piece together the action in that chapter based only on description. I'm stuck for the time being.

[culpeper]

thelbha.proboards.com/post/62670

I don't know but #12 sure looks like a drainage coming into the same part of the Gerryowen Loop starting in the same general direction as the Otter Creek drainage.  The only other reference is the old railroad sidetrack to the left of the drainage on the map.  If that eastern end sidetrack was that close to the beginning of that drainage than there you have it.

[culpeper]

drive.google.com/file/d/1rDm9YcMdQzdwbBpJtmWl7QGMZIr2QZTr/view?usp=sharing

Lol, the contour follows the creek bed to the letter.