The 12 Ammunition Mules

[benteeneast]

Yes. I used Reno's ammunition expenditure in his village fight. Lt. Wallace had one company in the skirmish line go back to their saddlebags for additional ammo, suggesting they had fired half their allotment off. In the woods, Maylan's and Varnums's companies also had to resupply, suggesting they too had fired one half their allotment off, all three companies did so so in what? 20 minutes?

Godfrey confirmed this, stating "Benteen's battalion was ordered to divide its ammunition with Reno's men who had apparently expended nearly half of all their personal ammunition." If they could fire half of it off in the skirmish line and the woods then, at that rate, they would be out of ammunition in an hour (or less).

According to one source, Custer's men carried an ammo allotment for a maximum combat time of 3-4 hours regardless of how conservatively used. If we look at Company L's situation it appears they also fired off about half their allotment and probably did so in 30 minutes or less.

The pack train carried an additional 100 cartridges per man.


Thank you again for your reply.


Each company had a pack mule with 2000 cartridges carried in two wooden boxes in an aparajo pack. That totals 24,000 rounds. 24,000 rounds of ammunition/ 600 troopers = 40 rounds per trooper.

Rate of fire has to many variables to make any finding of fact in regards to how long it would last.

Number of Indians closing on soldiers
Discipline of the troops
Continuous pressure or scattered by the Indians
Hit rate that would reduce the number of the enemy
Soldier casualty reducing the number of soldiers firing

Regards

Benteeneast

[imanonymous]

Oct 19, 2015 6:51:33 GMT -5 benteeneast said:

Each company had a pack mule with 2000 cartridges carried in two wooden boxes in an aparajo pack. That totals 24,000 rounds. 24,000 rounds of ammunition/ 600 troopers = 40 rounds per trooper.

I stand corrected. There were 12 pack mules each carrying two boxes of ammunition, each of 50 cartons of 20 rounds. At 1,000 rounds per box times 24 boxes, there 24,000 rounds. Although most sources cite the 24,000 rounds correctly, some apparently don't divide that by the total 566 enlisted men available and apparently divided it by the paper strength of Custer's five companies, ignoring the others. I fell victim to a source using that math.

[herosrest]

I'm taking opportunity to add to the debate with the following stuff which is little known.

Note 1 - 'NOTE ON THE CUSTER FIGHT - Through the kindness of Mr. Frank Zahn my attention was called to the fact that, following the fight with Major Reno in the bottoms of the Little Big Horn on the morning of June 25, Sitting Bull had an accident. It happened soon after the troops fled to the bluffs. At that time some of the pack-mules were shot, or ran away to be captured by the Indians. Sitting Bull saw a pack-mule on the ground. Supposing the animal was dead he went up to it, whereupon the mule kicked Sitting Bull on the shins. The chief was not seriously injured. (New Sources of Indian History 1850-1891, p181) ^{This data is from correspondance between Zahn and Walter Campbell aka Stanley Vestal.}

Note 2 - Northern Cheyenne Ice Bear, Ice or White Bull - Custer rode down to the river bank and formed a line of battle and charged, and then they stopped and fell back up the hill, but he met Indians coming from above and from all sides, and again formed a line. It was here that they were killed. From the men and from the horses of Reno's command, the Indians had obtained many guns and many cartridges which enabled them to fight Custer successfully. If it had not been for this, they could not have killed them so quickly. It was about eleven o'clock when they attacked Reno, and one o'clock when Custer's force had all been killed. The men of Custer's force had not used many of their cartridges, some had ten cartridges used from their belts and some twenty, but all their saddle pockets were full. (Lakota and Cheyenne: Indian Views of the Great Sioux War, 1876-1877 by Jerome A. Greene, p59-61)

There are a number of references to ammunition found on a captured mule. The given item (Note 1) places the event in time. Question - What did the Indian's do with this ammunition?

Ice's idea that weapons captured during the valley fight and retreat, contributed to destruction of Custer's command is worth considering since how many weapons could have been recovered from companies A,G and M? Interesting quibble for battle tech types to assess or even anaylse. Doing the quick thing with Reno's report then 'three officers and twenty-nine enlisted men killed and seven wounded' gives a maximum forty carbines falling into hostile hands. Wooden Leg got one. Note - The party of fourteen which returned to Reno from the timber did so unmounted and thus their saddlebag ammunition fell to the Sioux.

Could that maximum of 39 captured carbines have seriously affected the outcome of the Custer fight? It is far more likely that the captured ammunition was quickly distributed and fired off in any weapon which it would fit. There is an oddity associated with the cavalry ammunition in that the scouts were issued the rifle rather than carbine, so, were they issued with the rifle round for their rifles?

Was the mule which escaped and was found by Sitting Bull, from the scout's pack train of animals. It is worth remembering that Sgt. Hanley of Company C gained the Medal of Honor for returning a spooked ammunition mule (Barnum?) to the Reno Hill coral after it ran wild towards the hostiles.


Consideration - At least one pack train ammunition mule fell into hostile hands and this was undoubtedly distributed to warriors and put to use. Therefore, Custer Battlefield archaeology - the foundation of modern theory about the Custer Fight - is further complicated and undermined. I have not seen this strand of analysis elsewhere and it is of course wrapped up in issue's of credibility and performance on Reno Hill. An ammunition mule was captured. Do not doubt it. This was a serious failing. My feeling is that the scouts lost their supply of reserve ammo.

Reno went back down to the river and found Hodgson's body.

[chart]

Aug 17, 2015 2:35:04 GMT -5 keogh said:

Aug 17, 2015 0:12:38 GMT -5 carl said:

2 words are repeated in the note - "bring packs". Cooke was an experienced Adjutant and if competent would be accurate in his wording.

If Cooke was so good at writing orders, I wonder why Benteen was confused on whether he should advance or wait to escort the pack train? And we must also wonder why the correct meaning of this message has been debated over and over now for the past 138 years?

The high probability is that he meant packs - meaning not only the pack contents but the whole shebang, packers and all.

If that is your opinion, then you must also conclude that Custer -- after seeing the actual size of this tremendous village -- felt he didn't need the firepower of Benteen's battalion for the next hour and a half to 2 hours. That makes no sense to me. Why tell Benteen to "be quick" if his presence on the battlefield was not needed for several hours?

Irrelevant is the time.

Actually, time was of the essence, hence the inclusion of the words "be quick". After seeing the size of the village he was up against, do you really believe that Custer felt he had 2 hours to waste waiting for Benteen to arrive with an already strong escort for the pack train? Or would it make more sense to get Benteen up to the battle as soon as possible to support Reno's attack in the valley? Imo, to suppose that time is irrelevant here is highly illogical.

In regard to whether he meant the bluffs or valley - the shorter time would be to the bluffs as opposed to Ford A.

This is simply not true. Traveling along the main Indian trail down to Ford A would be quite a bit faster than getting the pack mules across the North Fork of Ash/Reno Creek and thence cross country up the bluffs. There are not many good places to cross the North Fork. Much of its length there contain steep cutbanks.

But even more logical - What makes more sense - to send the vulnerable train into the valley where the Indians are in force, or up on the
eastern bluffs, where there are none or few.

What makes more sense -- or more logic to me is to bring the pack train into the valley where the rest of the regiment is located to have easy access to the supplies contained therein, rather than place the train several miles away thereby necessitating a further division of your command. Besides, the valley was a far safer place to be than the open bluffs, as we saw later when Reno chose to base his defense there.

Adding the men is a bonus and prepares for contigencies as yet not known at the note writing time.

Yes, adding the men assigned to guard and escort the pack train would be a bonus if the battle was still raging on 2 hours after its start. I don't think anyone anticipated that it would, though. I don't think for a minute that Custer ever intended to delay his attack for several hours until the pack train came up. If that thought was ever in his mind, he would never have sent Reno into the valley to begin the attack when he did.

That it was intended for Benteen to guard the train is a red herring.

I agree that the idea of keeping Benteen's battalion out of the fight for several hours while expecting it to escort a pack train that already had a strong escort is a red herring. Yet we see that red herring waved over and over again. It makes no sense to me whatsoever.

My opinion is that this whole fantasy about ammo is due to what actually occured on Reno Hill, where 2 of the mules were speeded
up to replenish the expended ammo and that lost in saddle bags of lost horses. That situation is entirely different than when the note was written and transferring the one to the other is not warranted.

Then we're back to square one again with some people imagining that Custer was emulating George MacClellan's leadership style, thinking that after seeing the huge size of the village, he could delay the arrival of Benteen's battalion by now saddling it with escort duties for a pack train that could not arrive on the field for several hours. The only interpretation that makes any logical sense to me is that Custer intended Benteen to look out for the advance group of ammunition mules traveling several miles ahead of the main pack train. In point of fact, this advance group of mules under Mathey arrived on Reno Hill only a short time after Benteen did and was always just a mile or two behind Benteen once he returned to the main trail. I think we tend to lose sight of the fact that the advance ammunition mules were the only part of the pack train that needed to "be quick" on getting up to the battlefield. Once Custer realized that this village was still standing and willing to fight did he recognize the need to get the extra ammunition up there as fast as possible. Imo, that same sense of urgency did not extend to the rest of the pack train.

garryowen,

keogh

[chart]

Apologies that its 4 years later from this thread but I needed time to think about it. :-) I believe that to much is read into the note from Cooke and at the time it was written Custer was still of the belief the Indians would run, not fight, and the note simply is to have all his force "come up". By directing Benteeen shows, IMO , he had discovered Benteen was back on the trail and as Benteen was therefore senior officer over McDougal and the packs etc, Custer was directing what was the 3rd "wing" ,Benteeens command, the packs and McDougals companies. Consolidation of his forces and regrouping of same with everything he required at arms reach. He still believed, when he sent Martin, that he would be chasing and rounding up Indians and did not, IMO , call for the packs as he thought he may need ammo. He would IMO , have sent an officer or a Sgt if the need was urgent and for immediate strategic purposes. As Keogh said, Cooke would have written bring the ammo quick, which would alert Benteen immediately there was a problem and a fight and he best get moving up. The note on the other hand shows no panic or instruction or hint of a problem. Simply "come on"a normal military term to advance on, all is clear, ":be quick: again a normal term as in "double"to us grunts, not because of danger but because when things are on the move and happening, orders issued always turn to get your butt moving". Things were moving for Custer. He had found his objective and now it was no longer a command wandering the hills and valleys looking for the enemy. He had found them and it was to begin as a proper military operation. "Bring packs" was simply having Benteen take command over all companies and packs. The PS? I have no idea why Cooke would want to remind probably one of the most experienced and capable officers, Benteen, after writing 3 lines saying bring the packs. That is a mystery. Perhaps Cooke was wording it as if he was instructing Martini to deliver a message verbally. As in "tell Benteen to hurry and bring the packs there's a big village". Put it this way. Look at the note as if it was SAID to a person. So Cooke says to Martin, Go to Benteen tell him to hurry and bring the packs, there's a big village. He then sees Martini has not really understood what he has said, so Cooke repeats it and emphasizes BRING THE Packs. Seeing a blank stare, perhaps Cooke, in frustration pulls his pad out and as he writes the message he says it out loud to Martini as we would a child. I could see Cooke , frustrated, scribbling the note, and saying it as he wrote and at the end . BRING PACK. For all we know as he thrust the note at Martini in frustration, he threw in Capiche?

[herosrest]

I believe that there were thirteen ammunition mules.

Cooke's note states 'B bring pacs'.

[robb]

Hr,

You mean we're supposed to know who "B" is? And, what are "pacs"? It's all so confusing...! Help.....!


Robb

[benteeneast]

HR

That "B" is an ampersand sign. George Kush owns several letters written by Cooke where he uses that exact ampersand sign an the context is clear.

Regards

BE

[benteeneast]

Robb

HR is serious and he believes that the note means for B Company to bring packs. I think George Kush's Cooke letters leave no doubt that it is an ampersand in the note. Benteen got it wrong and so did HR.

Regards

Steve