The case against Benteen

[bangagong]

The New York Herald was an anti-Grant newspaper that Custer wrote for anonymously.

You still haven't said why Whittaker tried to coach the two packers to sway them in their testimony against Reno.

PS: Here's Whittaker's letter regarding his change of opinion on Benteen:

January 23, 1879:

"With regards to Col. Benteen . . . I have publicly charged Col. Benteen with disobedience of an order sent by Gen. Custer . . . from the moment that he reached the hill and reported to Maj. Reno his responsibility ceased. I therefore desire to state . . . that I consider Benteen wholly blameless for the disaster of the LBH . . . and I have already so stated in my application to the Senate. I make this correction in justice both to the living and the dead . . ."

Whittaker got it right!

[custerwest]

What a joke! Even the Reno Court of Inquiry chairman Jesse Lee condemned Benteen.

Whittaker was trying to put Reno in second trial and thus was forgetting Benteen to target Reno. Benteen's soldiers, who had seen him on June 26, supported him for that action, and Whittaker knew that it would be difficult to condemn Benteen because of the support he gained one day after Custer's death.

Of course, all of Benteen's men knew that they hadn't seen any action during the whole Custer Battle because Benteen had ignored his orders and waited on Reno Hill while Custer and his men were slaughtered.

Captain Weir to Benteen: “We ought to be over there!”

[custerwest]

"I thought Custer able to take care of himself."
Captain Benteen to the RCOI, 1879

(please tell me the page in the book when a subordinate can act like that. In military rules, it is high treason and fire squad for any man who says that.)

[custerwest]

“Benteen gave the command to move [to Weir Point]. Then we went back. We looked back and saw Custer still fighting. We went toward a hill where there was a breastwork of mules (Reno Hill)"

White Man Runs Him, Crow Scout
(WMRH's Story of the Custer Fight)

[custerwest]

Benteen wrote to Goldin that he was hiding a lot of things during his testimony, that the court knew it but couldn't find it. Benteen was glad that he was able to hide a lot of things - which means PERJURY.

[Clair]

I don't see how Benteen did anything to save Reno. He was just there.

By the time Benteen showed up, the Indians were mostly gone. There was no threat to Reno.

By the time the Warriors came back, Reno had the pack train, and was near water, so with water and ammo, was invulnerable to Indian attack. Neither Benteen as a leader, nor his three companies, were necessary for Reno to survive, I think.

So what did Benteen really do at LBH? What were his accomplishments, tactically?

He was late to the Reno fight, allowing Reno to retreat to the bluffs, which allowed Custer's column to be annihilated, and the village to escape.

He was late to the Custer fight, again allowing Custer's destruction.

So he had a lot of tactical negatives here, and I see no tactical positives he and his force had at all.

Now personally, he showed bravery. He conducted a counterattack. But any officer could have done those things...it doesn't make him special in any way.

Overall, my judgment of CPT Benteen as a commander is quite poor on this day. Just to make my own opinion clear as a contrast. I don't mind if people want to admire Frederick Benteen. He was a fine officer and Soldier.

Clair

[mitchboyer]

During one portion of the Reno Court of Inquiry, Benteen testified (among other things) that he had his company "position" themselves at an right angle on a ridge and, planted a guidon at the highest point "that looked over the country." He did this to "present an object that may attract the attention of Gen. Custer's command if it (the guidon) was in sight."

The recorder than asked, "Then in your opinion his command was still alive?" Benteen responded, "I thought so."

The Court than adjourned at 2:00 PM and reconvened the following morning at 10:00 AM.

Benteen was once again called to testify:

The Recorder asked Benteen if he received any notification from General Custer at the hands of trumpeter Martin. Benteen replied, "I received an order to come On - be quick, big village - bring packs, bring packs. We than found - I wish to say, before the order reached me, that I believe that General Custer and his whole command was dead."

When asked by the Recorder to state the time he received that order Benteen replied, "It was about three three O'clock."

Interesting!!!

The morning after testifying that he placed a guidon at 5 O'clock in the evening to attract live men he, subsequently, received a message from Custer at 3 O'clock but believe by then that the whole command was dead before he received this famous message.

"Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practiced to deceive.

[rosebud]

Yes this sounds like a huge contradiction. But in reality it is not as bad as it sounds.

The first part about him planting the flag to attract Custer's LIVE men can be true because on the 25Th of June they did not know if Custer was headed to Terry or still fighting. The point is, They do not know the condition of Custer at that TIME.

The second part, when he said that he believed that Custer was dead when he received the message would be using the knowledge they had obtained after the battle was over.

This would be the same as if you were to send a letter to a old friend and you find out that he was dead.

The fact that you sent the letter would indicate you thought he was living. But you could later say that he was dead before you sent the letter because of the facts you learned about at a later date.

But I do agree that Benteen was trying to pull a fast one with that statement, knowing darn well Custer ( or at least his men)was alive when Martini gave him the message. After all, they did go to the sound of the battle.

[historybuff]

Agreed. Temper that with the fact that Weir et. al. had been there prior to Benteen's arrival, and the hostiles did not sally forth immediately when Benteen and the rest of his command arrived. And they had to have observed the dust and gunpowder cloud, and the non-hearing impaired heard firing.

[keogh]

Apr 1, 2012 0:52:43 GMT -5 @rosebud said:

Yes this sounds like a huge contradiction. But in reality it is not as bad as it sounds.

The first part about him planting the flag to attract Custer's LIVE men can be true because on the 25Th of June they did not know if Custer was headed to Terry or still fighting. The point is, They do not know the condition of Custer at that TIME.

The second part, when he said that he believed that Custer was dead when he received the message would be using the knowledge they had obtained after the battle was over.

This would be the same as if you were to send a letter to a old friend and you find out that he was dead.

The fact that you sent the letter would indicate you thought he was living. But you could later say that he was dead before you sent the letter because of the facts you learned about at a later date.

That's a good point, but I don't think that's what Benteen really meant. Benteen had no way of knowing when Custer and his command were killed, and there was certainly no information that came his way to indicate that Custer's command was already dead by the time Martin delivered his message. If Custer's command was already dead, who, pray tell, was firing off all those volleys heard by nearly all the troops on Reno Hill shortly after Benteen arrived there? And why would the Indians delay their attack on the Reno/Benteen force for an additional 3 hours if Custer was already destroyed?

But I do agree that Benteen was trying to pull a fast one with that statement, knowing darn well Custer ( or at least his men)was alive when Martini gave him the message. After all, they did go to the sound of the battle.

The most likely reason for Benteen to blatantly lie about this likely came from Reno's attorney, who probably warned him that evening after hearing of Benteen's testimony of planting the guidon on Weir Peaks for any of Custer's command to see. Reno's attorney wanted to create the impression that there was no chance to save Custer and that Custer was already dead by the time Reno reached the bluffs, hence, there was no reason to rush to his assistance. Benteen was under direct orders from Custer to "come on" and "pitch in to anything he came across" -- not stop and settle in with Reno upon reaching the bluffs. The only way Benteen could truly justify his inaction upon reaching the bluffs was to proclaim his belief that Custer was already dead, hence any orders issued to him by Custer was now null and void. Today we might refer to Benteen's absurd statement as an exercise in 'CYA'.

garryowen,

keogh

[reddirt]

I agree with Keogh's "CYA" theory because it makes the most sense. What I do not understand is how Benteen got away with this "flub" which should have gone off like a keg of dynamite in that court room!

Could it be true that the outcome of the verdict was preordained regardless of the testimony given by Benteen, Reno, and Wallace which was collectively anti-Custer to a point of incredulous Hogwash?

[Clair]

YES.

[rosebud]

That's a good point, but I don't think that's what Benteen really meant. Benteen had no way of knowing when Custer and his command were killed, and there was certainly no information that came his way to indicate that Custer's command was already dead by the time Martin delivered his message.
Keogh

Exactly, that's why he answered the first part of the question like he did.

The second part is his opinion of the situation 2 years later. Knowing like everyone else.....Custer died. Exact time, unknown to this date. [color=Red

]I wish to say, before the order reached me, that I believe that General Custer and his whole command was dead."[/color]

You will notice that he is speaking in the present tense. His opinion at the present time. The time of the RCOI not 1876.

He does not say ....I thought they were dead when we received the message.

What they should have asked next is ....What makes you think Custer was already dead"

[keogh]

Apr 1, 2012 16:35:23 GMT -5 reddirt said:

I agree with Keogh's "CYA" theory because it makes the most sense. What I do not understand is how Benteen got away with this "flub" which should have gone off like a keg of dynamite in that court room!

Could it be true that the outcome of the verdict was preordained regardless of the testimony given by Benteen, Reno, and Wallace which was collectively anti-Custer to a point of incredulous Hogwash?

Of course it was. Girard made that quite clear in his conversations with one of the officers who told him he could not say all he wished to say or things could be made quite difficult for him. I believe the only reason the Army chose to hold this Court of Inquiry was to contain the damage that would likely occur should the Congress agree to undertake the Investigation. I think there was no question that the fix was in. Btw, my favorite among the Benteen/Wallace hogwashes was the estimated figure of 9000 warriors at LBH. I wonder how they were able to make such a statement without bursting out with a loud guffaw.

garryowen,

keogh

[keogh]

Apr 1, 2012 18:20:58 GMT -5 @rosebud said:

That's a good point, but I don't think that's what Benteen really meant. Benteen had no way of knowing when Custer and his command were killed, and there was certainly no information that came his way to indicate that Custer's command was already dead by the time Martin delivered his message.
Keogh

Exactly, that's why he answered the first part of the question like he did.

The second part is his opinion of the situation 2 years later. Knowing like everyone else.....Custer died. Exact time, unknown to this date.

What they should have asked next is ....What makes you think Custer was already dead"

Yes, but I am not convinced that Benteen believed that Custer was already dead when he received Martin's note down on Ash Creek. Benteen knew damn well that volleys had been fired shortly after his arrival on the bluffs. If he was too deaf to hear them, there were plenty of officers who did, and would have reported these volleys to both Reno and Benteen. That fact alone would tell Benteen that Custer was alive and fighting the Indians, who remained engaged fighting Custer for 2 1/2 to 3 hours before returning to engage Reno's troops on the Weir Peaks.

I believe that 2 years later, Benteen knew damn well that Custer's command was very much alive and intact when he got Martin's message on Ash Creek. He just lied, plain and simple, because he knew he could get away with it.

garryowen,

keogh