General Nelson Miles

[Clair]

Well, Benteen didn't really do anything wrong, per se...he just didn't do anything right!

In these days of honor, you don't criticize officers for being mediocre. You can criticize wrong decisions, however, and Reno's decision to leave the timber, and then not march over Weir Hill as the senior officer, make that easy and clear.

Clair

[keogh]

Personal Recollections of General Miles, with my annotations in brackets: PART X:

As the lips of Custer and those who died with him are forever sealed, and since there was no official investigation of all the circumstances which resulted in such a terrible disaster [here Miles rejects the notion that the Reno Court of Inquiry satisfactually answered such questions], it is but charity to withhold any severe criticism upon so gallant and distinguished an officer with such a brilliant record which he had made in successfully handling large bodies of troops during the great war. It is one of the saddest and greatest sacrifices that was ever made by heroic men on any battlefield. No man of military knowledge, in riding over this field now, and examining the position that Custer quickly took upon that crest commanding the valley could fail to recognize the military ability of that commander; and those graves remain as monuments to the fortitude of men who stood their ground. Custer's body was not mutilated, but he received a rifle shot through the body and one through the head.

The Indians further explained that after the fight was over, the Uncpapas, who, previous to the engagement, had been encamped at the upper end of the village, struck their camp at the advance of Reno's command, and afterward went into camp at the other end of the village and pitched their tents near the Cheyennes, where they remained for 2 days. Thus, the impression was given to the troops who afterward went over the field and examined the camp ground, that a larger body of Indians was encamped there than was actually the case, or in other words, there seemed to have been a larger camp than there really was.

From such information that I could obtain from the Indians themselves, the number of their warriors did not exceed 3500. Captain Philo Clark, who subsequently had charge of the surrendered Indians, and could readily talk the sign language, investigated this matter with great care, inquiring of the most intelligent Indians in each band of Sioux, and also among the Cheyenne, Arapahoes, etc., and he considered 2600 as the maximum number of warriors in that affair. At all events, they greatly outnumbered Custer's command. Yet, this has been the case in many Indian engagement.

[Thus, according to Gen. Miles informants and sources, the warrior force at LBH numbered somewhere between 2600 and 3500 warriors, or about double the number that Custer expected to find there.]

FINI

[bc]

I'm thinking Custer and others were told of about 600 warriors to be expected.

How many parts are there going to be?

Miles must have made a written report sometime in 1878 and probably forwarded it to Sheridan and maybe Sherman. At some point around this time Philo Clark prepared a map. This was probably the time.

bc

[keogh]

May 15, 2012 14:42:21 GMT -5 bc said:

I'm thinking Custer and others were told of about 600 warriors to be expected.

How many parts are there going to be?

Miles must have made a written report sometime in 1878 and probably forwarded it to Sheridan and maybe Sherman. At some point around this time Philo Clark prepared a map. This was probably the time.

bc

Britt, Custer was told to expect about 800 warriors. At one of his last officer calls, he indicated that he expected to meet about 1000, perhaps as many as 1500 warriors. It must have surprised him greatly to find nearly double his expectations. I think he still would have attacked, but with numbers like that, he might have thought twice about sending Benteen's battalion off so early in the game.

Its really a shame, in hindsight, that the 4 additional companies of the 2nd Cavalry were commanded by such a cad as "Grasshopper Jim" Brisbin. Had they been commanded by an Anson Mills or William Royal, those 4 troops would have significantly increased the odds of success. It would have allowed Benteen to go into the valley with Reno while allowing the 2nd Cav to assume Benteen's role of hitting the LBH valley south of Ash Creek. I think Benteen had it right when he dismissed the military capabilities of so many senior officers available for duty: Sturgis, Merrill, Tilford, Otis, & Reno. I would add Brisbin to that list as well.

garryowen,

keogh

[brvheart]

Or even better had Forsyth been in command of them. He was available and had served with Custer in the 1874 expedition.

[keogh]

May 15, 2012 21:32:17 GMT -5 brvheart said:

Or even better had Forsyth been in command of them. He was available and had served with Custer in the 1874 expedition.

You are right braveheart. I forgot about "Sandy" Forsythe. He would have been my first choice. Now how would things have played out had the hero of Beecher's Island commanded Reno's battalion in the valley that day?

garryowen,

keogh

[Mark]

In reply to recent threads regarding the mettle of IWP troops:

General Miles made it in Triumph
Kansas City, Missouri.
July 14 1903

General Nelson Miles, as black with dust and grime as the plains over which he had come, but as fresh as the 34-year-old officer who had been his companion, entered Fort Reno at 2.10 o’clock this afternoon, completing the longest horseback ride ever made by a commanding general of the army. It is 90 miles from Fort Sill to Fort Reno, and General Miles made it exactly, according to schedule, in eight hours’ actual riding time – 10 hours 20 minutes from start to finish.

Just for good measure, the General called for a horse an hour after his arrival at the fort, and rode four miles to El Reno to take the train for the North. The day was remarkably hot – above 90 degrees before 8 o’clock this morning, and nearly 100 degrees before the ride was completed, but General Miles did not seem to mind it. A relay of horses had been arranged for him at 10-mile intervals.

The only horseman who stayed with him throughout the journey was Captain Sayers of the Eighth Cavalry.

The first thirty-five miles of General Miles’s long ride was made in record time, the distance being covered in 2 hours, 25 minutes.

[keogh]

Jun 13, 2012 14:53:07 GMT -5 Mark said:

In reply to recent threads regarding the mettle of IWP troops:

General Miles made it in Triumph
Kansas City, Missouri.
July 14 1903

General Nelson Miles, as black with dust and grime as the plains over which he had come, but as fresh as the 34-year-old officer who had been his companion, entered Fort Reno at 2.10 o�clock this afternoon, completing the longest horseback ride ever made by a commanding general of the army. It is 90 miles from Fort Sill to Fort Reno, and General Miles made it exactly, according to schedule, in eight hours� actual riding time � 10 hours 20 minutes from start to finish.

Just for good measure, the General called for a horse an hour after his arrival at the fort, and rode four miles to El Reno to take the train for the North. The day was remarkably hot � above 90 degrees before 8 o�clock this morning, and nearly 100 degrees before the ride was completed, but General Miles did not seem to mind it. A relay of horses had been arranged for him at 10-mile intervals.

The only horseman who stayed with him throughout the journey was Captain Sayers of the Eighth Cavalry.

The first thirty-five miles of General Miles�s long ride was made in record time, the distance being covered in 2 hours, 25 minutes.

That's an amazing feat for a man 64 years of age. Miles was born the same year as General Custer, 1839. I always said Miles, despite being an Infantry commander, had the heart and soul -- dare I say 'mind'? -- of a Cavalryman.

Btw Mark, I just came across an interesting quote from Miles last evening:

"The Art of War among the white people is called strategy or tactics; when practiced by the Indians it is called treachery."

keogh

[Clair]

LOL...Miles was continually trying to mount his infantry on horses, ponies, and mules...ANYTHING to be a cavalryman!

ConZ

[keogh]

Here is an article about Gen. Nelson Miles published in the Salt Lake Herald, Jan. 30, 1897 concerning Mile's view of the Little Big Horn battle:

General Miles writes with great feeling and unhesitatingly champions the cause of General Custer in the campaign against Sitting Bull. He states clearly the conditions that prevailed when General Custer moved with the 7th Cavalry into the Indian country, when General Terry, in command of the department, General Sheridan, in command of the military district, and General Sherman, in command of the Army, knew not enough of the conditions and circumstances to give definite instructions. General Miles admits that at the time, there was a feeling in military circles that General Custer's training in the Civil War, and his general temper in battle were against him as commander of the expedition against the hostile Indians, and General Grant insisted that Terry, and not Custer, be placed in command of the expedition. It was admitted on the other hand that General Custer had more experience in fighting Indians than General Terry, and that he would be in command of the active column.

General Miles takes the position that General Custer's dispositions for the battle were in direct accordance with the best military strategy, and that he failed to defeat the Indians simply because he was not adequately supported by the 7 companies of cavalry that were to act in concert with him. He insists that General Custer did not disobey orders, because the last instructions of General Terry were to make his own dispositions and to use his own judgment. General Miles conducted the winter campaign immediately following the Custer massacre. He was familiar with the Indians who participated in that campaign, he visited the battlefield, traced the lines of battle and the development of the fighting or the progress of the battle by the position of the dead bodies, and he scouts the idea that General Custer moved up the ravine, a theory that was advanced by some of his critics, but shows that the bodies in the ravine of 30 or 40 men who had attempted to escape when all their comrades had been slaughtered. He criticises the actions of Major Reno and incidentally those of Captain Benteen. He tells, in short, a graphic story of what must have been one of the most dramatic battles of history, and his discussion is, from first to last, a defense of the dead Custer and severe condemnation of Major Reno.

[herosrest]

Miles made the first timed distance analysis on the ground which earns him little credit. He staunchly believed that a commander should do that and be obeyed and his conclusions 'proving' the ravine was only used by troopers to flee the close of fighting is entirely flawed by contradictory first hand evidence.

As an aside, the only definitive group of forty men identified upon the terrain, were Company I found in the ravine down towards the river as some twenty or thirty eight men.

Miles was gently critical of Reno and despite modern perspective and altered views of how military today should get the job done, the criticism was justified. Sturges's wife visited in 1878 at second anniversary which probably dates the image of her sons spurious grave. My suspicion though is that it was taken at the same time as Crittenden's was erected a year earlier.

Interestingly, during after Miles investigation of the battle, he interrogated the scout Curley at length aboard the river steamer Y.F. Barchelor but obviously learnt nothing of interest.

[herosrest]

background N.A. Miles

William Tecumseh Sherman (1820-1891) — Relatives: Adoptive son of Thomas Ewing; son of Mary (Hoyt) Sherman (1787-1852) and Charles Robert Sherman; brother of Charles Taylor Sherman, Lampson Parker Sherman and John Sherman; married, May 1, 1850, to Eleanor Boyle Ewing (1824-1888); father of Eleanor M. Sherman (1859-1915; who married Alexander Montgomery Thackara);

Note ~ uncle by marriage of Nelson Appleton Miles;

Note ~ uncle of Elizabeth Sherman (who married James Donald Cameron); Secretary of War.

fifth great-grandnephew of Thomas Welles; third cousin of Phineas Taylor Barnum; fourth cousin of Andrew Gould Chatfield (1810-1875); fourth cousin once removed of Chauncey Mitchell Depew.

Miles wife and Lizzie Sherman visited Miles during early summer 1877.

[benteeneast]

General Miles says he walked his horse from Reno's position on the bluff to where Custer's body was found in about 30 minutes; at a slow or hand gallop (a cantor) he could have covered the distance in about 10 or 15 minutes. E.S. Curtis gives about the same time."

Custer's body was on LSH not Calhoun. Did Reno himself ever make it to Weir Peak? So Miles would be walking faster than 4.5 to make it to where Custer's body was found.

I think he under estimated the time or had a fast walking horse. I do agree that he would probably have to trot but that is not what he stated.

It does bring up a point to consider. Where was Custer during the whole time troops were on Weir. If you believe that they were really there 2 hours after Weir arrived on the peaks that would mean all of the fights lasted two hours?

It would also mean the Indians engaged multiple locations at the same time.

Maybe some of the battle was over before Weir arrived as some have opined. Maybe the duration of the time on Weir Peaks is substantially less than the two hours.

100 rounds, or 50 rounds if your horse runs away, would either be 50 rounds per hour or 25 rounds per hour if the fighting was two hours long.

Benteeneast

[keogh]

Nov 19, 2013 7:42:50 GMT -5 benteeneast said:

General Miles says he walked his horse from Reno's position on the bluff to where Custer's body was found in about 30 minutes; at a slow or hand gallop (a cantor) he could have covered the distance in about 10 or 15 minutes. E.S. Curtis gives about the same time."

----------------------

benteeneast: Custer's body was on LSH not Calhoun.

We have two interpretations here. Your literal one:

"General Miles says he walked his horse from Reno's position on the bluff to [the very exact position on the ground] where Custer's body was found in about 30 minutes;"

Verses my less literal one: "General Miles says he walked his horse from Reno's position on the bluff to [the general area of the battlefield] where Custer's body was found in about 30 minutes;"

One of these interpretations makes a bit more sense than the other. We are all free to choose which of these sounds more logical.

Did Reno himself ever make it to Weir Peak?

I'm sorry. I must have missed that. Did Miles say that Reno himself made it out to Weir Peak? Or did he say from Reno's position? Reno was the commander of at least 4 troops who were stationed on the Weir Peaks. Thus their presence there encompassed a part of Reno's position on the bluffs. Reno himself needn't ever have gone there for this to be a position occupied by troops under his command.

So Miles would be walking faster than 4.5 to make it to where Custer's body was found.

Only if you insist on interpreting Miles statement as referencing Reno Hill to Custer Hill. The distance from Weir Point to Calhoun Hill is half that distance and can be covered in the time Miles gave.

I think he under estimated the time or had a fast walking horse. I do agree that he would probably have to trot but that is not what he stated.

And I would agree with you were I to believe he was actually referencing the distance from Reno Hill to Custer Hill. But the distance from Weir Point to Calhoun Hill is a much better fit, imo.

It does bring up a point to consider. Where was Custer during the whole time troops were on Weir.

Keogh's battalion was on Calhoun Hill, Finley Ridge and Battle Ridge until they were destroyed. Custer and Yates were farther north at the flats along the north fords, then Cemetery Ridge, then Last Stand Hill before they were destroyed.

If you believe that they were really there 2 hours after Weir arrived on the peaks that would mean all of the fights lasted two hours?

According to our participants (like Gerard), Custer's battle lasted a bit over 2 hours. When it was over, the Indians moved upriver to attack the troops on the Weir Peaks.

It would also mean the Indians engaged multiple locations at the same time.

How so?

Maybe some of the battle was over before Weir arrived as some have opined.

Certainly possible, but I see little evidence to support that notion. If that were the case, the Yates recon to the north would make no sense at all.

Maybe the duration of the time on Weir Peaks is substantially less than the two hours.

Perhaps, but that's not what Edgerly, Varnum and Hare would tell us.

100 rounds, or 50 rounds if your horse runs away, would either be 50 rounds per hour or 25 rounds per hour if the fighting was two hours long.

Benteeneast

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Hence Custer's need for the ammunition mules to arrive with the supporting units.

garryowen,

keogh

[benteeneast]

Bill

Regardless of the distance the Indians were not there to prevent Miles from riding that distance. We can see marker locations indicating that Custer's troops were scattered between LSH, SSL, FF, and Keogh positions. Those distances are not that far either if you remove the Indians.

I am not sure of Miles point regarding the distances. Something prevented Custer from regrouping and forming a mutually supporting defense of all 5 companies and it had nothing to do with distances between the 5 companies.

That same something would prevent travel of a much further distance in my opinion. Is it Miles contention that you can ignore the Indians if the distance is short? That appears to not have worked on the Custer Battlefield.

Regards

Steve