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Post by rch on May 21, 2008 10:54:23 GMT -5
A number of officers said they heard two volleys, and Godfrey thought they may have been distess signals. Some have questioned that they were really organized volleys.
So the first question (and least important for this thread) is were they organized volleys?
But my main question is could they have been fired on Calhoun Hill.
If the troops in the vacinity of Calhoun Hill had been left there for any reason as a rear guard while Custer moved further northward along Custer ridge, they might not have been hard pressed until signifcant numbers of warriors left Reno's front.
Perhaps the volleys had nothing to do with Reno and Benteen.
Could the volleys have been fired as a signal to Custer?
Could the volleys have been fired at the opening of the defence of Calhoun Hill? This was not an unusual way for firing to begin. The men would fire individaully after the volley fire.
rch
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Post by keogh on May 21, 2008 12:20:07 GMT -5
A number of officers said they heard two volleys, and Godfrey thought they may have been distess signals. Some have questioned that they were really organized volleys. So the first question (and least important for this thread) is were they organized volleys? But my main question is could they have been fired on Calhoun Hill. If the troops in the vacinity of Calhoun Hill had been left there for any reason as a rear guard while Custer moved further northward along Custer ridge, they might not have been hard pressed until signifcant numbers of warriors left Reno's front. Perhaps the volleys had nothing to do with Reno and Benteen. Could the volleys have been fired as a signal to Custer? Could the volleys have been fired at the opening of the defence of Calhoun Hill? This was not an unusual way for firing to begin. The men would fire individaully after the volley fire. rch Well rch, this opens up a discussion for quite a few different possibilities. There is one theory existing that the volley's were fired from the vicinity of Nye-Cartwright & Luce Ridge as a means of signaling the 2nd battalion at MTF to fall back and make their junction with the 1st battalion as it made its way to Calhoun Hill. Another view has the volley fire placed at MTF if Custer was attempting a feint with 2 companies to draw the hostiles off of Reno. Based on the timing of when the volleys took place, my own view is that the volley firing took place either on N-C/Luce Ridge or at MTF rather than Calhoun Hill, although we should not discount the latter as a possibility. Keogh |
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Post by conz on May 21, 2008 13:26:07 GMT -5
My best guess is that the volleys were by some of Keogh's companies on East Ridge and/or Luce Ridge, due to the large number of cartridges and other implements found there, which could only have been left early in the Custer action.
They could have been fired against either Natives coming up MTC against Yates, or Natives coming over Weir Hill from Reno, or both.
They could have been principally to make the Natives "go to ground," as volley fire is better for that than individual fire is, especially at range, or they could have been mainly a signal to Reno to "march to the sound of the guns," i.e., make sure he heard them, or both.
Take your pick! All are militarily feasible models, I think.
Clair
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Post by Melani on May 21, 2008 16:00:08 GMT -5
I would tend to think that a couple of well-placed volleys would slow down an enemy advance pretty well. My guess would be that they were fired tactically, rather than as a signal. But where from? This brings up the delicate issue of timing.
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fred
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Post by fred on May 21, 2008 19:55:33 GMT -5
If you really analyze the volley firing statements, a very confused picture emerges.
CPT Benteen heard no volleys. [RCOI, 408]
PVT Corcoran (K)—Heard volleys toward Custer late in the evening. [Custer in 76, 150]
SGT Culbertson (A)—Varnum and Edgerly were sitting at the edge of a bank (on the hill), talking. Varnum had just asked Culbertson if he had some water. Culbertson gave him some and they firing from downstream. “At first it was a couple of volleys, very heavy, afterwards it was lighter and appeared to be more distant. Lieutenant Varnum made the remark that General Custer was hotly engaged or was giving it to the Indians hot… Major Reno came up, and we went to the river, and I did not hear it anymore.” [RCOI, 373]
• He heard the firing for only a few minutes. [374]
• After going down to the river with Reno, Culbertson heard “some little firing.” [374]
• It seemed like skirmish line firing. [374]
• The downstream firing was no heavier than the firing on Reno’s skirmish line. [377]
PVT Davern (F)— Shortly after he reached the hilltop he heard firing, volleys from downstream, though not very distinct. Most of the command was already there. [RCOI, 351]
LT DeRudio—“I heard immense volleys of firing and more than half the Indians around Major Reno left. Part of them went on the highest bluffs and part went down the river. Some of them picketed their ponies under the bluffs and lay down flat, watching Major Reno.” [RCOI, 316]
• The firing began at least a few minutes after the command reached the top of the hill. [318]
• After the heavy firing began downstream, the Indians left Reno. [323]
• The firing lasted about 1 1/2 hours, then died off with small shots. [318]
“The first volley was very plain, then it got farther on and then it died out.” [327]
LT Edgerly— Shortly after getting on the hill—maybe 5 minutes—Edgerly heard heavy volley firing downstream. He and Weir discussed. Edgerly then discussed it with the first sergeant [Michael Martin]. They saw a large cloud of dust. All 3 men agreed they should go down there to help. [444]
• The dust was on the left side of the river. By 1879, Edgerly thought this dust was made by Indians coming toward the village from the fight. [445] [This assessment was made by Edgerly some time between the battle and the inquiry. At the time of the battle, he and his first sergeant thought Custer was charging the Indians. {461}]
• He reiterated that this dust was not from the Custer battlefield. [459]
• Lyman Gilbert pressed Edgerly about this firing. He said it was usual for the Indians to fire off a lot of bullets after a big, successful fight, intimating that the Custer battle was already over. [459-460]
• Edgerly said he thought the Custer battle was over about some 20 to 30 minutes after the firing he heard. [460] This was 30 to 35 minutes after his arrival on Reno Hill. [460] Once on Reno Hill, Edgerly and others heard heavy firing downstream. [Custer in 76, 55]
Fred Gerard— Gerard heard continuous firing downstream. He and DeRudio heard 3 or 4 volleys intermingled among the continuous firing. He described the volleys as being from 50 or 100 guns. [RCOI, 98]
1. Gerard heard a continuous, scattering firing, sometimes only single or 4 or 5 shots, seemingly marching downriver. Farther downriver, the firing got much heavier. It lasted until dark. [98 and 99]
• After Gerard first heard the sound of “scattering shots” on the right bank—what he presumed to be Custer’s line of march—it was 15 or 20 or 25 minutes before the firing became general. [135]
2. The heavier, downstream firing that Gerard estimated came from the Custer battlefield lasted about 2 hours. Following the sound of firing, Gerard estimated that the firing from the bluffs off to his right lasted about 20 or 25 minutes. [99] It seems that the overall firing was reasonably continuous until dark. The shorter span might have been from Indians following Custer’s column or firing on troops on the higher ridges. As the troops moved off, the nearby firing ceased and more was heard farther downstream.
3. Estimated the heavy firing occurred between 3 and 4 p.m. [128]
• “Yes, sir, heavy firing. I know there was a long space of time that there was no firing. I heard a few shots in the bottom, one, two, or three.” [128]
Gerard said it was about a half hour from the time the heavy firing downriver ceased and the firing began again around Reno Hill. [RCOI, 135-136] About 30 minutes after the troops had retreated from the timber, firing began downriver.
* Shots seemed near and Gerard thought Custer must be in the village.
* 2 volleys: 30 to 40 shots, then trailing shots, followed by another volley.
* “In the light of later events, Gerard was convinced that the shots heard were fired at men trying to escape through the village.” [Custer in 76, 234]
* Stuck in the timber with LT DeRudio, O’Neill, and Billy Jackson, they heard volleys all afternoon, along with the “scattering fire of the Indians.” [The Custer Myth251]
LT Godfrey— After Hare returned, they heard firing from below. Godfrey heard 2 distinct volleys a long distance away, then scattering shots, “not very heavy.” [RCOI, 483]
“During a long time after the junction of Reno and Benteen we heard firing down the river….” They heard two distinct volleys. [“Custer’s Last Battle 1876,” Century Magazine, 26]
They heard two distinct volleys, which surprised them. Godfrey later said he thought those volleys were “distress signals.” [The Custer Myth, 142; from the 1908 and 1921 re-prints of the Century Magazine article.]
PVT Theodore Goldin—In a January 15, 1930 letter to Albert W. Johnson: Goldin claimed he heard volleys—three—when he was with Herendeen in the “river bottom.” When he reached Reno hill, he reported hearing them, but was told—by whom?—they were not heard on the hilltop. [Apparently…] someone—long after the battle—conducted an experiment—when? Who?—of firing volleys on Custer Hill, but they were not heard by men on Reno Hill. Dustin added a note that it was not surprising given the intervening ridges and the distance. [The Benteen-Goldin Letters, 28]
October 29, 1932: [Goldin to Fred Dustin] Goldin again alludes to the volley firing. He says he heard it while in the brush with Herendeen [this latter fact is one I do not believe]. He reiterates his claim that certain officers on Reno Hill said they did not hear the volleys—Goldin said there were three—and he again describes the post-battle experiment of volleys fired on Custer Hill and no one on Reno Hill able to hear them. [The Benteen-Goldin Letters, 82]
LT Luther Hare— Just after Benteen came up and just before Hare left for the packs, LT Godfrey called Hare’s attention to some firing from downstream. Hare heard 2 distinct volleys. Hare thought at the time that Custer “was having a very warm time.” [RCOI, 290]
George Herendeen— From a statement made by Herendeen in Bozeman, M. T., on January 4, 1878, and published in the New York Herald, January 22, 1878. “The firing down the valley was very heavy. There were about nine volleys at intervals and the intermediate firing was quite rapid. The heavy firing lasted from three-quarters of an hour to an hour and then it died away.” [The Custer Myth, 264]
They heard firing less than a half hour after the troops left the timber. “It began in volleys. I heard a great many volleys fired, then between volleys and after the volleys ceased there were scattering shots.” [RCOI, 257]
• The volleys came from downstream. [257]
• They were probably in the woods about 20 minutes after the general retreat when they heard the firing from downstream. [268]
The firing from that direction lasted about an hour. [RCOI, 257]
The volleys from downriver were heard in the early part of the fighting there. There were a great many of them and intermittent firing was heard in between the volleys. After the volleys ended, there was a great deal of scattered firing. [Custer in 76, 224]
PVT Martini— Walter Camp Interviews Conducted: 24Oct1908 and 4May1910
Martini met Boston Custer. Boston pointed out to him that Martin’s horse had been hit. Half way between “medium coulee and Weir Hill.” After this is when he heard a volley then looked back to see Custer “retreating.” [Custer in 76104, FN 7]
* From an article written by W. A. Graham and published in the July 1923, edition of The Cavalry Journal. (Graham does not say when Martini told this story, but it certainly seems like it was some time in 1922. Martini died shortly thereafter, on Christmas Eve, 1922.) They heard some volleys and Weir jumped on his horse and headed downriver, followed by his company. [The Custer Myth, 291]
Martini's statements are interesting because they point out just how worthless so many of his comments really are. In the Camp interview Martini claimed he heard the volley, then looked back to see Custer "retreating." Then in the Graham interview, Martini says they heard volleys, then Weir started downstream. These are the same volleys! So, in the Camp interview Martini hadn't yet reached Benteen, but in the Graham interview Martini is on Reno Hill with Benteen when the volley was heard. This latter one is correct.
CPT Thomas McDougall— The firing was 2 volleys and McDougall reported it to Reno. [RCOI, 529] It was a dull sound, resounding through the hills. [531]
CPT Myles Moylan— Moylan heard firing from downstream after the packs had arrived; none before. [236] Moylan mentioned it to McDougall who replied that he thought it was from Custer at the other end of the village. It was volley firing, but faint. [RCOI, 236]
PVT O’Neill (G)— Moylan heard firing from downstream after the packs had arrived; none before. [236] Moylan mentioned it to McDougall who replied that he thought it was from Custer at the other end of the village. It was volley firing, but faint. [Custer in 76236]
Dr. Henry Porter— They were not on the hill very long when Porter heard firing downstream and to the left. He heard sharp firing for a few minutes, then scatter shots. It got less and less. [RCOI, 191]
LT Charles Varnum— A few minutes after Benteen arrived, Varnum borrowed LT Wallace’s rifle and popped off a few shots. As he handed the rifle back, he heard firing downstream. “Jesus Christ, Wallace, hear that? And that?” This was the only firing Varnum heard. [160]
• It was not volley firing, “but a heavy firing, a sort of crash, crash. I heard it only for a few minutes.” [RCOI, 160]
LT George Wallace—Heard no firing other than “scattering shots in the bottom on the left, no heavy firing.” He thought it came from the village and did not sound like fighting. [RCOI, 35]
Confused?
Best wishes,
Fred.
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Post by conz on May 22, 2008 9:41:53 GMT -5
This may help...  |
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fred
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Post by fred on May 22, 2008 10:19:36 GMT -5
As usual, Clair, absolutely magnificent!!!!!
I will say, however, East Ridge is wrong. They were never up there. Once down Cedar Coulee, the column turned left, then headed down MTC until they reached the gentle slope that led to Luce. You can see it where MTC's North Fork splits East from Luce, right in between the two blue lines.
Best wishes,
Fred.
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Post by rch on May 22, 2008 11:05:33 GMT -5
I think the most interesting account of volley firing came from McDougall who was arriving late at the party. At the RCOI, McDougall said he heard the volley firing about 15 minutes before he arrived in view of the Reno's and Benteen's commands.
That seems to me to be pretty late for Custer's command to be between MTC and Calhoun.
rch
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Post by conz on May 22, 2008 13:59:26 GMT -5
So McDougall was about 2 miles further behind, at that time, Reno's position. Twice as far, and the noise of all his moving as well, and they heard volleys.
Could have been Calhoun fire, but that's still a stretch, given all the muted reports of firing we hear from the Reno people. More likely N-C/Luce firing, but still possible.
Clair
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Post by conz on May 22, 2008 14:08:51 GMT -5
As usual, Clair, absolutely magnificent!!!!! I will say, however, East Ridge is wrong. They were never up there. Once down Cedar Coulee, the column turned left, then headed down MTC until they reached the gentle slope that led to Luce. You can see it where MTC's North Fork splits East from Luce, right in between the two blue lines. Best wishes, Fred. I dunno, Fred...many of the sources I see these days have Keogh (and some Yates, as well) up on East Ridge first...as soon as they get into MTC. From there they march over to lower Luce ridge...above Butler's ridge, which I think Yates used to get down to the ford. Michno has this I see, but Doran does not. Now how much firing was done from East Ridge, even if occupied, is a matter for archeologists to sort out...I understand some maps do show such, but there is also confusion as to whether they were accurately marked. Clair |
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fred
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Post by fred on May 22, 2008 14:26:48 GMT -5
Clair--
Neither Greene nor Bonafede show anything on East Ridge and if the Bonafede map doesn't show anything, then nothing has been found there, and anyone who says otherwise is just making it up to suit their own theories. I rule East Ridge out completely.
Bruce Trinque wrote a beautiful article in the January 1995 edition of the Research Review (vol. 9, no. 1). In it, he explains the difference between East Ridge, Luce Ridge, Luce's "Small Ridge," Luce's "Another Ridge," and the Blummer-Nye-Cartwright Ridge. In it, he rules out any part thought to have been played by East.
When I go there in 2009, I am going to walk all those ridges, even if they mortar me out of the place.
Best wishes,
Fred.
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Post by bluehorse on Aug 13, 2008 10:20:30 GMT -5
Hi,
as a newcomer to the board, apart from the fact that I have a bagful of questions I'd like to ask, I'd like to mull over a problem with timing and what Custer may have been up to before those volleys were heard.
Now it's generally agreed that the last sighting of Custers command was around 3.25, { I'm using Grays timing here as that is the one I am familiar with,} and that Martin must have left with that message at around 3.30 from somewhere close to where Cedar and MTC meet. Incidently, I've put to one side De-Rudios sighting as I find that somewhat problematic.
From there I believe Custer then moved some distance down MTC before moving on up onto Luce ridge, from whence he could get his first real view of the extent of the village and what was happening in it. Now I have no idea this would have taken, but I doubt it was very long, especially given that one imagines he wished to get stuck in as rapidly as possible. Once on Luce he no doubt spent a little time viewing what was going on; too many warriors still rushing off to fight Reno, and the rest, the non coms heading off towards the horse herd with all that might imply, i.e. they might round up the herd and exit post haste whilst the warriors held the enemy back. So, if we allow 10 minutes for him to arrive on Luce, { generous I'd say,} and 5 more for surveying the scene, we are still only at 3.45, in other words at least twenty minutes before anyone heard any firing.
That's not to say that Custers command didn't do any; on the Bonafede map, if you look closely, you can see that he has marked firing residue from around the point they would have turned out of MTC and ascended the southern slope of Luce. For the most part this is light and looks as if it were being fired by men on the move, but there is quite a cluster just below the crown facing in a generally South, South Western direction, which begs the question, who could they be firing at so early on, Wolf Tooth and Big Foots Cheyennes?
From the amount of spent cartridges that have been found from there on, and the reports we have that some of the firing at least was delivered by dismounted men on skirmish lines, one can only conclude two things, A. that it took far longer than Custer would have wished, to traverse Luce and Nye Cartwright, and B. there must have been a deal of Indian pressure being exerted on them from fairly early on.
Oh dear, like many of those that post on these boards, I started out with a question or two niggling away at the back of my mind, questions which I foolishly imagined I could get down in a line or two, and now here I am halfway through a novel. I suppose my questions are, A. where do you think those volleys were being fired from, and B. if the answer is Luce or Nye Cartwright, why was Custer still in either of these areas when one would have assumed he would be heading hell bent for ford D?
BlueHorse
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Post by keogh on Aug 13, 2008 11:24:57 GMT -5
Hi Bluehorse, and welcome to the forum. Yes, I would agree with you that they were very likely firing at Wolf Tooth's band of Cheyenne, or the other possibility is that they were firing at warriors just arriving in their rear (from the Sharpshooter Ridge area or even the lower reaches of Weir Point) who had left Reno's position on the bluffs after spotting Custer's command on these ridges.
Yes, I think it fair to say that the evidence indicates that Custer spent a fair amount of time atop Luce Ridge and Nye-Cartright Blummer Ridge. I am not sure he did so due to the heavy Indian pressure on him there, but for other factors. Had there been that heavy pressure from the hostiles that early in the fight, I do not believe Custer would have continued to move north and farther away from his support. That would make no sense whatsoever. Whatever the level of opposition he faced here, it was not enough to persuade him to fall back and go on the defensive.
I tend to agree with you that the volleys were fired from Luce and N-C Ridges and perhaps a few from the MTF area as well. There is an outside chance that they might have been fired from Calhoun Hill though. I won't rule that out until we can determine if shots can be heard from Reno Hill from that vicinity (about 3.5 miles). Custer apparently was still in the area as a result of his commitment to support Reno's fight in the valley. Most battle researchers believe that at this juncture, Custer had sent one of his battalions down to Medicine Tail Ford to hold or attempt a crossing there. He kept a 2nd battalion back on the Luce Ridge complex (perhaps he was planning to use this battalion to ride farther north to head off the noncoms). They might well have remained in this area covering 1st battalions advance to MTF and awaiting the expected or possible arrival of Benteen's battalion, which Boston Custer would have reported was not far behind.
When large numbers of warriors began to appear from the bluff in his rear (due to Reno's precipitous retreat out of the valley), Custer could no longer hold MTF and was forced to improvise and change plans if he had any thoughts of maintaining the initiative and seize any chance at what was becoming a vanishing victory. That's when he decided to cast his dice to the winds and move north with both battalions.
Keogh
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Post by bluehorse on Aug 13, 2008 12:23:29 GMT -5
If they were firing at Indians arriving from their rear, i.e. Weir point or Sharpshooter ridge, then this would mean that they were still around the Southern slopes of Luce some 35 minutes after Martin left.
Now while I'm aware that the likelyhood is that Custer had dispatched at least one compamny down towards MTF, probaly to check whether it was usable, and to draw some of the warriors to him rather than have more of them joining in on the attack on Reno, I would have imagined that he had moved on by then.
Blue Horse
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Post by clw on Aug 13, 2008 16:29:06 GMT -5
If these volleys came from the high ridges around Luce and N/C, why does almost every source Fred quoted that mentions a direction (and there are many) say the firing came from DOWNSTREAM? Especially Gerard who was in the timber and would seem certain to know the difference between downstream and the east ridges.
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