Post by bandboxtroop on May 14, 2008 23:05:26 GMT -5
Rch do you have any clue as to wear the Guidon recovered in Dull Knifes village is? It was made into a pillow case. The Guidon from Slim Buttes is in the Museum and the Culbertson guidon is in Detroit but I have no clue where the Dull Knife guidon is.
I'm sorry. I don't know where the Dull Knife guidon went. It wasn't mentioned in the 7th Cavalry history. Have you checked with the Battlefield historian?
The guidon if it was preserved could be among the regimental property of the 4th Cavalry wherever that it. It could have been kept by Mackenzie or one of his officers.
Ranald Mackenzie's father Alexander was actually a Slidell, but he used his mother's maiden name. An uncle, John Slidell, was one of the Confererate ministers removed from the Trent in 1861. The Slidell/Mackenzies were related by marriage to the Commodore Perry and August Belmont. So perhaps there are e some clues in the family histories.
There was probably a surplus of regimental colors after the Civil War.
According to Hatcher's "Flags of the Civil War," QM depots purchased over 2300 regimental colors between May, 1861 and Oct, 1865. Since many volunteer regiments carried colors based on state flags, I think it's possible the surplus lasted for years and there may have been some left when the the Coat of Arms as it appeared on flags was changed.
At the turn of the century the Coat of Arms were completely redesigned into the current version.
Re: The yellow standard of the Regiment of Mounted RifIes.
I'm not sure what the regulation color of the regimental standard was. The regiment was authorized different facings for its uniforms, so it may have been authorized a different color for its standard, or the yellow flag may have been an eagle standard. Did that flag contain sun rays breaking through clouds? These elements which are part of the Arms of the United States were not included on the regulation colors.
Yellow silk field 26 X 29 Inches, trimmed with yellow fringe; 13 gold stars on the top divided into two rows; Eagle with shield of solid blue near the top and 13 red and white stripes; painted red scroll held in beak of an eagle with motto painted in yellow (E Pluribus Unum); 6 arrows in one claw, branch in opposite; name of regiment in yellow on red scroll at the bottom of the standard.
Pretty much your requlation standard, no sun rays or clouds.
Thank you. You're right, Except for the color it is the regulation standard. That leads to some interesting speculation. If the QM Department made the flag for the Mounted Rifles it may have had a few yellow flags left over without designations on the scoll.
Post by topkick1833 on May 15, 2008 11:31:17 GMT -5
I hear ya. It really makes you wonder doesn't it? I suppose it is possible that the 7th was issued a yellow standard. I would really like to read the accounts that mention a yellow regimental flag. I'm sure out there in some old archive or attic trunk is a diary or letter that mentions the regimental standard by color. Now all we have to do is go and find it.
Clair, there is some evidence that the 7th did indeed lose its regimental colors that day. According to Godfrey, the regimental colors were cavalry yellow in color (as it was accurately portrayed in Paxton's famous painting). Keogh
Where can I find Godfrey's reference to a yellow regimental color? I would really like to read it.
p.s. Keogh are you still coming to Gettysburg in July?
I'm thinking if they in fact had lost the yellow "regimental colors" It would not have been official Army issue. They were blue and not given to flights of fancy or special orders.......But I could perhaps see the officers getting together and buying or having made a personal "regimental colors" much like Libby's homemade red and blue silk swallowtail pennet for Custer's headquarters company. I have my doubts tho, the Indians would have said something about it, I mean there are many reports of a guidon being seen and taken.Why then wouldn't there be at least something about a BIG yellow flag I mean it would make real nice pretty blanket coveted by more then a couple Indians I think.
Post by bandboxtroop on May 15, 2008 12:38:38 GMT -5
Sean the indians never mentioned any of the captured colors except for Yellow Nose taking L troops guidon. Custer's personal flag has never surfaced, Like the guidon captured in Dull Knifes village the silk flag couldn thave been made into a pillow case etc or tossed in a fired before going back to the agency. Only 3 of the 8 lost guidons were recaptured.
Thank you.... So you disagree then? All I'm saying is I think if the Yellow Regimental colors was there it would most likely show up in the historical record, big flag on a hill. I don't think it was. But for sake of argument I would agree it is possible however unlikely.
Post by bandboxtroop on May 15, 2008 19:25:33 GMT -5
No actually it was there. The regimental color Sgt died on LSH. The Color Sgt never leaves the colors. The Regimental colors are not tied down on a mule in the pack train. His body was found close to Custer. If you get deep into it a company offered to test the colors in the Museum, it was refused.
Where else would he be? F Troop was present on Custer hill and his body was probably identified no doubt about it, but a soldier will do what he is ordered Color Sgt or not. If the Colors are properly cased as determined by the regimental commanding officer then he would be properly relieved until a time determined by again, the commanding officer. I'll give you one thing you are certainly confidant in your opinion. As for the testing refusal that doesn't prove anything to me. The flag I've read is in a bad way and they feel confident that testing is unnecessary for it is the Sevenths Regimental Colors and they intend to preserve it.
A Hussar who lives past the age of 30 should be shot for malingaring.
The Godfrey citation is in Hardorff's "On the Little Bighorn with Walter Camp." I think it was in a letter to Camp. The book is a little expensive and I found it in the NY Public Library, so I hope my memory isn't playing tricks with me about whether it was a letter or not.
The quote is from p. 173, "Vickory carried the 'regimental standard,' a yellow flag."
From Camp's notes of an interview with August Seifert in Liddic and Harbaugh's "Custer and Company" p 72: "Sgt Robert Hughes, who was killed with Custer, carried the Regimental flag. It was yellow flag with an eagle." Seifert said that Vickory carried Custer's flag, and I think he's wrong about the flag bearers.
I don't think these statements are strong enough to prove that the flag lost was a yellow flag. But I believe the evidence that a flag was lost is strong enough. I could find no statement by a 7th Cavalryman or anyone but Graham that confirms Graham's contention that the flag was carried furled and packed away with the pack train.
Kanipe said the flag was lost. (also in Hardorff above)
The 7th Cavalrymen at the Washington, DC Soldiers Home said the flag was lost. (Graham's own pamphlet on 7th Cavalry flags)
Dr Paulding who was with Gibbon's command said the flag was lost. (letter to his mother)
An enlisted man of the 7th Inf said that the flag was lost. (an 1876 interview in New York paper)
In the late 1920's the Seventh Cavalry itself didn't know what happened to its flag and requested information about its possible replacement from the Adjutant General who checked with the QM Department which didn't know either.
The flag in the Battlefield collection is unquestionably a 7th Cavalry standard from that era. It could have been retired before the battle, or it could be a replacement for one that was lost.
I doubt that there is any test that could be done on the Battlefield flag that could prove that it was carried furled and packed away on 25 Jun 1876 or could prove anything more than the near date of its manufacture and the name of the contractor who supplied it, which would be nice to know in any case.
Sgt Vickory was indeed killed on Custer Hill as were a large number of F Co men. He could have been there simply as a member of his company if the flag had been retired. However the references to Vickory are that he carried the flag not that he "usually" carried the flag.
Why would Custer retire the regimental standard before the first shot was fired, while he carried his own personal flag and all the regiment's guidons into the fight?
The ways of the National Park Service are indeed strange. Why such reverance for a flag so shamefully carried tucked away? Why it's hardly a relic at all.
Post by bandboxtroop on May 16, 2008 12:20:02 GMT -5
Rch thanks for the info. I to think that the 4th commander may have kept the Dull Knife guidon to noe as did Anson Mills keep the Slim Buttes guidon. Why they were not returned to the 7th is beyond me. In the Civil War Union regiments gave back fellow Union flags they recaptured to their owners. Case in point I use to reennact the 15th NJ Inf they lost their State color under Sheriden in the 1864 Valley Campaign and they were recaptured by Custer and returned to the 15. Rch there is to much info out there pointing toward the 7th loosing the regimental yellow colors. The artist Paxton spent 20 years researching his last stand painting he did and interviewed as many survivors of the 7th as he could and its in the painting. I dont think he would have added a weird color flag for no reason. The testing I mentioned would indeed tell where the flag had been dust etc accumulates on the flag and the testing tels where the flag as been it was done on flag from Ft Fisher NC and on a Mexican war flag I have a story in a booklet just got to dig it out but I will try to find a link and post it as the company use to have a web site. With colors in private hands going for 50,000 + people what them tested.
Post by bandboxtroop on May 16, 2008 12:30:33 GMT -5
PS As I tried to explain before the regimental color bearer place was with the colors especially going into combat. And as you stated Custer would not be flying his personal flag and not the 7th's colors. The color bearer was a NCO usually tall and built and picked for his bearing. Canadians with Custer book list John Vickory born in Toronto 1847 as 5 10, tall for a cavalryman, he had service in the 14th NY Heavy Artillery deserted and joined the 2 Mass Cav finished the war good discharge joined the 7th in 1874 there is a photo of him. Book states "having been selected as the regimental Standard bearer he was destined to be fairly close to Custer and Cooke in battle formation" He was found with his right arm severed from his body at the shoulder with Custer leaning against him.